Polygamist parents, children begin reunions »
Posted By not2needy 4 months ago in NewsMore than 400 children taken from a polygamist sect's ranch two months ago began returning to the arms of their tearful parents Monday, hours after a judge bowed to a state Supreme Court ruling that the seizure was not justified.
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not2needy
I am a Christian, Married, Liberal, and retired social worker. One son. I enjoy my computer, gardening, reading, cooking and having a good time with ...
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not2needy4 months ago
FTA:
"It's just great day," said Nancy Dockstader, whose chin quivered and eyes filled with tears as she embraced her 9-year-old daughter, Amy, outside a foster-care center in Gonzales, about 65 miles east of San Antonio. "We're so grateful."
Amid the reunions, an elder in the polygamist group said church policy going forward will be to forbid any girl to marry who is not old enough to legally consent in the state where she lives.
They aren't supposed to sanction marriages of underaged girls anymore, i just hope there are some tabs kept on the goings on, on that compound.
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SwampFox-82nd4 months ago
Sweet Sister, Bro Swampie here to apologize for my post. I do think that the only place for the children -- who did nothing wrong -- belong with family members. The mothers have to deal with the realities of their decisions, but it doesn't include punishing the child for being born. Personally, I think the father should be castrated for his deeds. I can only hope that the mothers will take the time to investigate their decisions to place their children at the mercy of a man with the very big whanger, and very little gray matter to match.
Regardless of how I personally think, I know full well those children will have the rest of their lives to decide the guilt or innocents of those involved. It is not my right to decide otherwise.
I wished I had more to express my personal views, but I do not. Those blessed mothers have to decide what is right between their children and their father. NOT HIS RIGHT, not my right as well.
PS: Leave it to you to force our faith to speak for us.
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DropkickaLib4 months ago
If having children with underaged girls was the government's primary concern, most inner city families would lose custody of their daughters.
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mcgrievysr4 months ago
tanglang----"This is a good thing. The feds had no right to do what they did"
I agree with you about the government not having a right to step in. However, I don't know enough about this situation to know if sexual abuse was going on. Of course the kids need to be protected. It's a sticky situation.
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SwampFox-82nd4 months ago
McGrievySr, no doubt about it, no one can say they were "right of wrong." Yes, my cool friend, we owe that to the children to act on their best behalf. The only problem, as you alluded to, what man or society knows what is best for the childrens' sake. I can only say that parenting is the most difficult task before mankind today. Our decisions affect those most in need. Peace
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lfergie8124 months ago
mcgrievysr
I agree that it is a sticky situation and the kids need protection from predators in the church. My question is whether laws of the state of Texas were broken. Separation of church and state is all well and good but I feel that the church has to abide by the laws of the state they reside. As an example, does the state of Texas allow a 50 year old man to marry a 12 year old "woman" that may be his niece and did that happen?
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UnusualSuspect4 months ago
I think now that the children are going back to their mothers, some sort of federal or state oversight should be on hand at the premises, to make sure that there isn't any further abuse by the parents (and the fathers in particular).
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SwampFox-82nd4 months ago
TangLang, as the French say, "d'accord," my cool friend. We Americans say simply I am in accordance with your words... Your words are truth. Peace..
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SwampFox-82nd4 months ago
Coming from you, my cool friend, I take that as a complement. But let it be known just as soon as I resolve all of my shortcomings, I'll start fixing the worlds' problems. From here, they indeed need that very badly. Peace, Will.
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bill29364 months ago
Actually tanglang, it was the state CPS that was the cause. This was never in federal hands. Now you must note that CPS is one of the biggest group of 'It takes a village' bunch ever seen. They have long believed that their university education made them more than qualified to tell people how to raise kids. Note also it was an office that was under the gun to increase caseload or face staff decreases.
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djn3nunez34 months ago
"This is a good thing. The feds had no right to do what they did."
They may be the second time I agree with you. But I think it was the state of Texas that took the children away from their mothers. With that said they should have made the decisions to remove children based on a case by case basis, not in mass.
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ranchhandComment removed: User banned.
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AnteUp4 months ago
tanglang ~
Hello? "Feds" You are projecting on this one.
It's a little premature for you to fall back on
the rhetoric of Waco, etc. It was NOT the Feds.
This case involved TEXAS officials and courts.
Keep your personal bogeyman the big bad Federal
Government out of it until they actually get in it.
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SwampFox-82nd4 months ago
I remember a similar incident that happened in my beloved Florida. Anyone remember the Mariel Boatlift in 1980? 120,000 Cubans were allowed to leave their homeland and come to the United States. Today I know a few who took that journey; I am proud to say that they are close friends of mine. The point is a woman and child fled Cuba, leaving the father behind. They used anything that was available, they were all exposed to the elements of blue-water crossings. The mother died on her way to America, but her son was protected by family members during the voyage. The legal issue was simply this: should the son be raised by family members in South Florida, or returned to his father still in Cuba.
Hearings were brutal. They concluded that the son be returned to his father in Cuba.
His father was the last living member of the child's family. I concur, the federal government doesn't not have the right to retain legal custody of a child when the father is his closest family member.
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Howtogo4 months ago
They are smooth in their operation. It looks dark for the 12 to 17 year olds that will soon become pregnant. Sad nothing can legally be done to stop it.
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bill29364 months ago
You discussing the goings on at any local high school/junior high? Because at the FLDS YFZ ranch, they found no cases to produce in court of underage marriage or pregnancy. Making claims to and by Nancy Grace does not count. Remember how she acted during the Duke Lacrosse case?
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Spadecaller4 months ago
It appears that if their was a better understanding and respect for our constution a lot of unnecessary suffering and expense could have been completely avoided.
The time is long overdue for our law inforcement officials, all government employees, and for our children to get an education that is well versed in civics and the provisions embodied in our constitution. Ya think?
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cowboygrandpa4 months ago
The only thing I know to do is pray for the children and the mothers who need to protect them.
When men set up their own religious beliefs to entrap young women and girls in to forced marriages it is not right.
Who among us would want that for their daughters. I would kill the man that tried it. Not even thinking twice about sending him to hell.
Yes everyone has a right to believe as they choose. No they do not have the right to inflict their beliefs upon minor children when it comes to marriage or forced sex.
I'm a hard man when it comes to doing wrong to children. They are our only hope for the future and when we allow them to become screwed up we screw up the future.
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AnteUp4 months ago
I am on another page completely than the majority here.
The picture of Warren Jeffs kissing his bride - what was
she- 12 or 14 - made me want to yurp. She only came up to his belt buckle. He is the leader of this sect whether he is in prison or not. That mother I've seen on the mags at the market, crying with her little dauhter holding on to her skirts has probably already promised her to some old geyser.
(I know that is "guy-zer" but for the life of me I cannot remember how to spell what I mean "gee-zer")
IMO this action was the best chance they had to sort out the situation. NO child living in that compound will EVER
discuss the situation candidly, no matter how many times the
child welfare people visit. I feel I just watched our
courts return the victims to their abusers.
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gamahuche4 months ago
I'm basically on your page too, ante, but there is a dire Catch-22 to this situation, i.e. the danger that the remedy can be worse than the crime [and I'm speaking in the sense of POSSIBLE crime here - not testifying that there has been a crime].
Again there are frequently huge discrepancies in how people are judged.
These folks seem to be getting some kind of pass in public opinion because of their religiosity - freedom of religion as a sacred right.
If the story concerned ripping a child away from a cliche stereotype such as "a young black single mother on welfare and crack" would there even be any dsicussion of the case or would those 2 prejudicial details substitute for judge and jury?
I'm not making a case for or against anybody here - just trying to point out that stereotyping judgments are very easily formed on the basis of a few prejudicial phrases and not so easily acknowledged, assessed or amended by surprising individual realities.
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bill29364 months ago
A couple of problems with the picture. One the CPS would not reveal the origin or the 'chain of custody' of the picture. Two, they originally dated the picture to fit their story, except the time they dated the picture to, Warren Jeffs was in prison. Interesting. Note I am from the area that the case occurred and we had extensive media coverage. The local media while at first believed the CPS, but when it appeared on a daily basis that CPS had 'eyeballed' the ages of the women wrong even though they had state issued birth certificates, the original claim was from a woman that lived in Colorado that was know for 'crank calls' and the general CYA job that CPS went to (saying one thing in the media and another in court). The local media started questioning the CPS as many of the local people.
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tkyrchncs4 months ago
No child ever discusses anything candidly with people whom he distrusts, which most definitely would include the people who snatch him away from his father and mother and siblings and everything he loves, and stock-pile him in a strange place with other children they have done the exact same thing to. Getting accurate reports from little children is a delicate and interpretive matter, and this is about as delicate as a wrecking ball.
Children most often tell questioners the answers they think the questioners want to hear, which is why their testimony is so variable and easily manipulated and SUSPECT.
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AnteUp4 months ago
tkyrchncs ~
Yeah okay - I watch Law & Order too, I've seen the sessions
with the children and the over-zealous shrink. But let's assume for a moment that children ARE being abused -
start with that premise. Now tell me how you "investigate"
the charges when the possible victims are ingrained with
a fear and distrust of all outsiders. Plus the fact that
if they were to answer any question in a way that might set off alarms to the authorities, the authorities will NOT
be able to protect them. They will remain behind while the
authorities go back to the office to sort out the data.
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bill29364 months ago
Yet they could produce no evidence of this in court. Just for Nancy Grace. Nancy Grace was such a joke in this case that some one us in the San Angelo area started playing a game during her show. It was called 'catchphrase Bingo' We had bingo cards with random words and phrases that are inflammitory. Monday thru Thursday a single bingo won, on Friday we played 'blackout'.
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lvrofwolves4 months ago
IF there were no wrong doings, I'm glad it ended this way, but being there are so many red flags, it's owed to the children to make sure all is well, and continues to be so. I have absolutely no problems with their beliefs, but they must follow ALL of our laws, and when it comes to the children's safety I'd rather error and be safe then to have them in harms way. I'm sure CPS felt they were doing what was right, at least I hope that's the case. Lets not forget what their brainwashing leader is in jail for....he seems to have a great deal of power over them, and that continues even from prison.
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bill29364 months ago
Well would it shock you to learn that just prior to the raid, there was talk in the state of downsizing some CPS offices due to a reduced caseload? And one of the office on the list was San Angelo? And surprise, they got a bunch of new cases. Also note that three of the children in different group homes were assualted by other kids. Another was bitten by a spider in foster care. Sound like CPS was doing a real bangup job. Another note, the first reunited family last week when they got a court order, CPS responded by stating they did not know where the two kids were.
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bill29364 months ago
For those who are basing their beliefs as to what was happenning on Nancy Grace and the media, remember this. Nancy Grace was pushing left and right to convict the 'Duke Lacrosse Team'. Remember what happenned with that. On one episode of her show she was critical of the judges in the 3rd Court of Appeals who first decided that CPS was in the wrong. She claimed they were blind and knew nothing about child law cases. Of course the Chief Justice of the 3rd court (one of the ones who decided against the CPS) had previously been a district judge that had handled over 30,000 family law cases (including dealing with CPS cases). Maybe he does know something about how CPS works. And note all three judges decided against CPS in the 3rd District Court.
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Dicax_Maximus4 months ago
THOMNH62 - Don't for one second think that I'm siding with the cult, but one has to ask, where's the proof of underage girls giving birth ?
Before you say it, yes I know :- "Their "spiritual leader" (aka paedophile) just got banged up, BUT, as "spiritual leader" how many of his "disciples" think or act the same way ???" - BUT that is NOT proof.....
Personally speaking, I debate the tactics used (which do smell of politics), but, I stress BUT, what if they'd been right on all counts, AND NOT ACTED ?
BUT, by my own argument above, I assumed they had the "proof" that was required to act. It now appears that this was not the case. Ergo, the CSP were wrong.
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bill29364 months ago
What you missed was that half the females that CPS 'eyeballed' (CPS's term) as children have so far been identified as adults (one being almost 28). The other half were scheduled for hearings but the appeals court and Texas Supreme court decision put an end to the hearings. CPS eyeballed the ages because they decided to not believe the sate issued birth certificates as being real. The 14 y/o that CPS first claimed to be pregnant and then they claimed she had a child, CPS then had to go to court and admit they were wrong, she was not pregnant and never had a child. Just to catch you up.
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THOMNH624 months ago
i have to agree, they must have had proof, and now there is not enough, sounds like great police work. If indeed crimes against children were committed then wouldn't a greater crime be messing up this case so they go back to the men who prey on them.
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