Religion – Anyone who believes that men should determine how women dress, or whether they receive medical attention, marry, practice contraception, or do anything else with their minds and bodies is not a religious moderate. Anyone who thinks that non-Muslims should be obliged to conform to the religious taboos of Islam is not a Muslim moderate. -Sam Harris
On the subject of Muslim terrorism, what does a moderate Muslim sound like? He or she will sound something like this:
"It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims... We cannot tolerate in our midst those who abduct journalists, murder civilians, explode buses; we cannot accept them as related to us, whatever the sufferings they claim to justify their criminal deeds. These are the people who have smeared Islam and stained its image. We cannot clear our names unless we own up to the shameful fact that terrorism has become an Islamic enterprise; an almost exclusive monopoly, implemented by Muslim men and women." (excerpt from "Innocent religion is now a message of hate."
Good post Ricky. Instead of focuing on moderate muslims, I think that we need to teach more moderate religion. Fundamentalism is the tree that grows from the root of religion. We need to figure out what it is about religion that breeds these fundamentalists. Fundamentalism is not unique to Islam either, as Pat Robertson and Bush can attest.
Ricky D,
Being the good little liberal that you are you quote the Huffington Post.
Fact: There are no "Good" Muslims. The silence from the mythical "Good" Muslim community is deafening when it comes time to condemn radical Islam. They say nothing and do nothing. So what does this tell you about the mythical "Good" Muslims?
Crap like this is what I expect from a Darwin Kool Aid drinker like you.
Seig Heil! Seig Heil! Seig Heil!
I am quite certain that had you the power and the opportunity you would immediately launch a campaign to eradicate from the planet all those that didn't think or believe exactly as you do!
As that wise and funny philosopher of modern times, Bugs Bunny, would say - "What a Marroon!"
"The silence from the mythical "Good" Muslim community is deafening when it comes time to condemn radical Islam."
While I agree, we must not forget that the so-called "Christian nation" allows idiots like Fred Phelps and Whats-his-name Dejesus-Miranda in Florida to run amok.
No, they're not (yet) flying planes into buildings, but no one is telling them to sit down and shut up, either.
The loudest protestors of Phelps are Christians and the loudest of these protestors are Baptists. Baptists are highly critical of Phelps even though he claims to be Baptist.
What? They screech from behind the pulpit about Phelps and his antics? They thump their Bibles and complain about how horrible Phelps is for doing these things? That's not protest! Is no one confronting Phelps about his stupidity? All you hear about is Phelps and his (apparently inbred) daughter and their band of misguided followers. No one has the onions to stand up to Phelps except the Patriot Guard.
At least Phelps isn't idiotic enough to wave a picket sign in one of THEIR faces.
I have personally confronted them at a protest in front of a gay church and at a political rally. The are truly odious creatures.
The problem is that Phepls and a number of his offspring are lawyers and are just waiting to sue the pants off of anyone who does anything close to actually shutting them up and/or moving them along.
SBC president, chaplains denounce military funeral protests
Nashville, Tennessee -- Fred Phelps, the Topeka, Kan., pastor who has been protesting at the funerals of U.S. troops slain in Iraq, engages in "hate-filled activities" and is not a Southern Baptist, SBC President Bobby Welch said Aug. 29 in a statement. http://www.rickross.com/reference/westboro/west...
20. Is Fred Phelps (the pastor of the Westboro Baptist Church and leader of those who protest under the slogan "God Hates Fags") or his church affiliated with the SBC?
We share concern over the unbiblical views and offensive tactics of Fred Phelps and his followers. His church is not in any way affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention, and his extreme position not only stands in contrast to ours, more importantly they stand in contrast to God's Word. http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/faqs.asp#20
If you don't see Baptist leaders denouncing Phelps, you are not looking.
INVEST, your comment was quite funny. You can go to ANY Muslim website and they will condemn terrorism. Go to CAIR.com, go to ISNA.com and .net to name a few.
You said, "Fact: There are no "Good" Muslims" Well i condemn "radical Islam" so your statement is a typical Islamophobe comment.
Have a nice one.
"You can go to ANY Muslim website and they will condemn terrorism."
Condemning terrorism from the safety of your home or office, hiding behind your keyboard and staring at a monitor is doing nothing to quiet the radical leaders out there beating their proverbial drums and inciting young Muslims to explosive murder/suicides.
Which reminds me... if killin' for Allah is such a noble cause, why aren't the leaders leading by example, and blowin' their OWN heads off, instead of recruiting OTHERS for suicide missions?
Hmac...that was your response to what I wrote? Man your bad at this.
No one said killing for Allah is a noble cause. The only time it is permitted is in defense. Had you bothered to truly learn about Islam you would know that. But it is obvious you can't be taken seriously.
"Condemning terrorism from the safety of your home or office, hiding behind your keyboard and staring at a monitor is doing nothing to quiet the radical leaders out there beating their proverbial drums and inciting young Muslims to explosive murder/suicides."
What would you recommend then? Countless speeches and telecasts have been given in Muslim countries you wouldn't know you watch Fox.
The same "terrorism" can be said by people who invade countries for absolutely NO REASON and under false pretenses and kill innocent civilians with their mighty bombs from the sky.
Or this:
Imam Mohammed, the son of Elijah Muhammad who founded the Nation of Islam, addressed the audience on the role of "Islam and Higher Education." While the Imam lightly touched on the subject of formal education, his main theme was on the moral education of mankind.
"Muhammad, the messenger of Allah, told us that 'the ink of the scholar is more precious than the blood of the martyr,'" the Imam told a warm and respectful audience of about 300 people.
"When he said that the 'ink of the scholar is more precious than the blood of the martyr' he was telling us that armed struggle is not the answer. Education and morality; those two things will propel Muslims out of the condition they are in today."
Well spoken words.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AI...
How would the Imam respond to these facts?...And they are facts!
http://www.terrorismawareness.org/know-about-ji...
I agree with a ton of stuff in this article,
"He (or she) is a religious demagogue on a collision course with modernity."
The fact that this is in no way, a new problem that is happening just because we have now invaded Iraq. It has been brewing for quite some time, and as any entity that feels threatened, it becomes aggressive.
Lets face it, the world is growing smaller, the youth are finding ways of discovering new thoughts and behaviors that are infuriating the elder Muslims in control.
The only way that they feel they can stop the wave of information and knowledge, is to stop those behind it. Which is anyone who isn't Muslim.
It cant happen overnight, but the youth of the Middle East are our greatest hope. And that is why they deserve to be protected.
There is no clash between islam and being modern infact it is encouraged. There IS, however, a clash between being a Muslim and being promiscious which is probably what you mean by 'modern'.
Sultan - Now come on be true to thy own self. Islamic nations on the whole and its masses within are quite backward with religious dogma the pillar of existence. No tolerance exuded so your post is nonsense without substantial facts to back it up.
NELSON
There is great tolerance in Islamic countries, there are many westerners who live in them and have no issues being there or are treated harshly. As a matter of fact, many Christians including missionaries convert while they are there without any "force" as the west likes to think and they end up living there. If you're going into a War Zone however, that may be different. Try to have a balance of where you get your information.
In the library recently I found a book YOU ARE BEING LIED TO. I think that was the name. It had one article from 1999. It reported the media coverage of terrorism, where it occurs and who does it. They said a respected international organization reported something like 160 attacks in one part of the world by one group of people. A number of attacks in another area by another group of people and about eleven attacks in yet another geographical area by yet another people.
The 160 attacks and the next highest number of attacks by area were nearly all ignored. No comment was made about their religious or ethnic assocations.
But media attention went to the place and people of the eleven attacks as if they were the only people and place doing any of this.
The eleven cases (and world terrorism) were blamed on Muslims, because they were Muslims. (Nearly all of the other Muslim areas had no problems).
The 160 were done by Catholics in S. America. Others were by Hindus.
I am so glad to find someone that reads, and actually forms an opinion based on information rather then plublicly regurgitated hatred generating garbage
I made a similar comment in a different discussion, without your reference
"Car bombs wern't the creation of modern muslim extreemists, Catholics and Protestants blew each other up regularly, The Cathlic church had more horendous torture structures than the chineese, and directly started more than one war and extermination attempt.."
Hate is great isn't it, don't understand it, hate it, easy.
But that exact publicly followed, governmentally & press created and distibuted hatefull redderic is what makes the current reality come true. They didn't hate us till we meddled in their lives, claiming to know better
The Danish cartoon matter has been selectively discussed. All the reporting has been from the standpoint of the Danish or other editors or of people not of the group attacked. There was no reporting of the Muslim cleric's experience. The reaction to the cartoons came in January, months after the cartoons were published. There was no report about what had transpired in the intervening.
Whether or not drawing of people, including the prophet, are approved by Muslims (sometimes they are) the cartoons were an attack on Muslims in a way which should be well understood. In the the United States, the effect of such attacks are so well known that the Supreme Court has used the term "fighting words" and they are known as hate propaganda. Recent cases of the actor's assault on the cop, the comic's words to his audience and the comedians parody of a peoples' language all resulted in outrage. We understand these things. We understand defamation.
Except when we speak of Muslims.
All the examples of non-muslim intolerant incidences were all done by an individual. It would be a more valid argument if you cited examples of large numbers of people in groups who ravage and kill because they felt their religion was insulted. Protest are fine and dandy until it turns violent and innocent lives are snuffed out.
Charlson
Muslims don't make cartoons of people religious figures or insult their holy books. So you won't get that same reaction. Especially in such a sensitive time in the world where Muslims feel they are being attacked, they will lash out. If the riot doesn't involve religion are you saying it is ok then? Otherwise there have been many riots in the US about other things. The riots in LA for example.
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185)
One sign of religious moderation is not being too sure about the divine origin of any book. Moderate Muslims will understand that all texts and doctrines should be susceptible to criticism without fear of violent reprisal. Moderate Muslims surely realize that all books are now candidates for flushing down the toilet. Even conservative Muslims should have realized that the appropriate response to this mode of Koran desecration would have been to flush one of our books down the toilet. The rioters were religious lunatics. As are the people who have gathered by the thousands to protest the Danish cartoons of Muhammad and to call for the slaughter of those who printed them.
There are now 1.3 billion Muslims on earth, and Islam is the world's fastest growing religion. There is no question that we must give Muslim moderates every tool they need to win a war of ideas with their coreligionists. But we must be honest about what religious moderation actually entails.
-Harris
Its an interesting point of view..
Unfortunately it also preaches from a Western worldview and doesn't even begin to come to terms with the concept that Muslims are starting from a different worldview - however "modern" or "tolerant" they may be.
Its quite easy to think of some actions which could be performed in Western culture which woud arouse the ire of virtually EVERYBODY - Lennie Bruce did it famously, there was also a performance artist in NY in the 70's, Karen Finlay [?sp.], whose schtick was doing unspeakable things with yams, live, thereby enraging huge numbers of more "orthodox" souls - most of whom never saw her act..
Now the basic presumption that whatever anyone does to the Koran is no big deal because its "just a book" is false.
For Muslims the Koran is not only a sacred text but each individual copy of it is regarded literally as a sacred object.
We don't view the Bible that way but there were plenty of people who were outraged at Madonna wearing a cross.. Now imagine the lynching potential in one of the more excitable regions of the US of going to a Christian Communion service and peeing on the wafers, for example..
I thought the priests ALWAYS peed on the wafers...
thank for shared
As usual, you don't know what you are talking about (neither does the author of the article for that matter). Not being sure of the religous texts isn't being a moderate, it is being a heretic. While Christians are not to be blamed for not being sure of their religious texts the same cannot be said for Muslims and Jews. The Torah is based on something and some of it is correct, the Qur'an is easily verifyable specially since the source we have is carbon dated back to the times of Mohamed and its memorized versions are passed down generation after generation. When it comes to the New testamant it is nothing but heavily edited writings of 4 people who do not speak for God. In addition, an original Aramaic version does not even exist.
My point is this: Don't think like a Christian and then draw conclusions about other religions.
Finally, Islam IS moderate but certain elements have become extreme. The author obviously missed this point or is unaware of it (probably the latter).
"When it comes to the New testamant it is nothing but heavily edited writings of 4 people who do not speak for God."
Thanks for your very open minded views.
In my opinion, the Koran is a collection of writings by a violent nomad who does not speak for God.
Islam, by it's core belief that it is the only way and the fact that it's Believers tend to be agressively intolerant of Infidels, is the greatest danger to peace in the world today.
Anyone can fake a book, let's let gods speak for themselves, the only thing is, it will be awfully quiet.
"In my opinion, the Koran is a collection of writings by a violent nomad who does not speak for God."
Oh BoBo what is Islamophobia without you.
The bible is a laughing stock my friend. Only ignorant people who don't bother to research believe it's the "word of god" It is the farthest from the truth. Your biblical scholars still debate whether Jesus said what he said by drawing colored BEADS for the love of GOD!!!
RED-Jesus said it or something very close to it.
PINK-Jesus probably said something like it, although his words have SUFFERED in TRANSMISSION.
GRAY-these are not his words, but the ideas are close to his own.
Black-Jesus did NOT say it; the words represent the Christian community or a later point of view.
Funk, Robert Walter. 1996. Honest to Jesus, Jesus for a New Millennium. Polebridge Press. p. 8
This is your inspired word of GOD!!?? After 2000 years of Christendom you are still debating your books veracity!
The Saudi's insult the Bible by not even letting in their country
"Anyone who believes that men should determine how women dress, or whether they receive medical attention, marry, practice contraception, or do anything else with their minds and bodies is not a religious moderate"
No - they're called a secularist. If you ever feel bored by rants, feel free to more closely examine the cultures of the UK, Europe, USA, and especially Japan.
well said brite.
how comforting it seems to think we in the US/west live in an era of free speech, and equality.
Ask the single mothers living on 2 jobs, food stamps ($3.50 per day), the CEOs getting rich off the advertising, porn and fashion industries, and the rich sorority girls puking their meals into toilets and baby-oil wrestling in bikinis for the pleasure of frat boys, insurance companies refusing to pay for cervical cancer prevention and contraception.
even in our enlightened western times, it is indeed the men and the masculine culture calling the shots. it is not just those backward muslims.
i am not against the west, or men. what i am against is the pot calling the kettle black.
Its true there are "nice" Muslims who don't want to harm innocent people. But it is also true, although politically incorrect to mention, that the vast majority of mass murders of the perfectly innocent in this century have also been Muslims and they all like to dress in the eighth century manner. How does one tell the nice from the not nice before being blown up?