Who Are the Moderate Muslims? »
Posted by: RickyDawkins 1 year, 1 month ago183 Comments Report this Story
Anyone who believes that men should determine how women dress, or whether they receive medical attention, marry, practice contraception, or do anything else with their minds and bodies is not a religious moderate. Anyone who thinks that non-Muslims should be obliged to conform to the religious taboos of Islam is not a Muslim moderate. -Sam Harris
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RickyDawkins1 year, 1 month ago
One sign of religious moderation is not being too sure about the divine origin of any book. Moderate Muslims will understand that all texts and doctrines should be susceptible to criticism without fear of violent reprisal. Moderate Muslims surely realize that all books are now candidates for flushing down the toilet. Even conservative Muslims should have realized that the appropriate response to this mode of Koran desecration would have been to flush one of our books down the toilet. The rioters were religious lunatics. As are the people who have gathered by the thousands to protest the Danish cartoons of Muhammad and to call for the slaughter of those who printed them.
There are now 1.3 billion Muslims on earth, and Islam is the world's fastest growing religion. There is no question that we must give Muslim moderates every tool they need to win a war of ideas with their coreligionists. But we must be honest about what religious moderation actually entails.
-Harris
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gamahuche1 year, 1 month ago
Its an interesting point of view..
Unfortunately it also preaches from a Western worldview and doesn't even begin to come to terms with the concept that Muslims are starting from a different worldview - however "modern" or "tolerant" they may be.
Its quite easy to think of some actions which could be performed in Western culture which woud arouse the ire of virtually EVERYBODY - Lennie Bruce did it famously, there was also a performance artist in NY in the 70's, Karen Finlay [?sp.], whose schtick was doing unspeakable things with yams, live, thereby enraging huge numbers of more "orthodox" souls - most of whom never saw her act..
Now the basic presumption that whatever anyone does to the Koran is no big deal because its "just a book" is false.
For Muslims the Koran is not only a sacred text but each individual copy of it is regarded literally as a sacred object.
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SultanME1 year, 1 month ago
As usual, you don't know what you are talking about (neither does the author of the article for that matter). Not being sure of the religous texts isn't being a moderate, it is being a heretic. While Christians are not to be blamed for not being sure of their religious texts the same cannot be said for Muslims and Jews. The Torah is based on something and some of it is correct, the Qur'an is easily verifyable specially since the source we have is carbon dated back to the times of Mohamed and its memorized versions are passed down generation after generation. When it comes to the New testamant it is nothing but heavily edited writings of 4 people who do not speak for God. In addition, an original Aramaic version does not even exist.
My point is this: Don't think like a Christian and then draw conclusions about other religions.
Finally, Islam IS moderate but certain elements have become extreme. The author obviously missed this point or is unaware of it (probably the latter).
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bobo-in-texas1 year, 1 month ago
"When it comes to the New testamant it is nothing but heavily edited writings of 4 people who do not speak for God."
Thanks for your very open minded views.
In my opinion, the Koran is a collection of writings by a violent nomad who does not speak for God.
Islam, by it's core belief that it is the only way and the fact that it's Believers tend to be agressively intolerant of Infidels, is the greatest danger to peace in the world today.
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brite20061 year, 1 month ago
"Anyone who believes that men should determine how women dress, or whether they receive medical attention, marry, practice contraception, or do anything else with their minds and bodies is not a religious moderate"
No - they're called a secularist. If you ever feel bored by rants, feel free to more closely examine the cultures of the UK, Europe, USA, and especially Japan.
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acdnc1 year, 1 month ago
well said brite.
how comforting it seems to think we in the US/west live in an era of free speech, and equality.
Ask the single mothers living on 2 jobs, food stamps ($3.50 per day), the CEOs getting rich off the advertising, porn and fashion industries, and the rich sorority girls puking their meals into toilets and baby-oil wrestling in bikinis for the pleasure of frat boys, insurance companies refusing to pay for cervical cancer prevention and contraception.
even in our enlightened western times, it is indeed the men and the masculine culture calling the shots. it is not just those backward muslims.
i am not against the west, or men. what i am against is the pot calling the kettle black.
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squirt-gun1 year, 1 month ago
Its true there are "nice" Muslims who don't want to harm innocent people. But it is also true, although politically incorrect to mention, that the vast majority of mass murders of the perfectly innocent in this century have also been Muslims and they all like to dress in the eighth century manner. How does one tell the nice from the not nice before being blown up?
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RickyDawkins1 year, 1 month ago
On the subject of Muslim terrorism, what does a moderate Muslim sound like? He or she will sound something like this:
"It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims... We cannot tolerate in our midst those who abduct journalists, murder civilians, explode buses; we cannot accept them as related to us, whatever the sufferings they claim to justify their criminal deeds. These are the people who have smeared Islam and stained its image. We cannot clear our names unless we own up to the shameful fact that terrorism has become an Islamic enterprise; an almost exclusive monopoly, implemented by Muslim men and women." (excerpt from "Innocent religion is now a message of hate."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/who-ar...
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toph19731 year, 1 month ago
Good post Ricky. Instead of focuing on moderate muslims, I think that we need to teach more moderate religion. Fundamentalism is the tree that grows from the root of religion. We need to figure out what it is about religion that breeds these fundamentalists. Fundamentalism is not unique to Islam either, as Pat Robertson and Bush can attest.
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gamahuche1 year, 1 month ago
Nah! Sorrry Sam! You sound just like a middle-of-the-road Westerner..
Perhaps you'd like to have a go at at pretending to be a repentant KKK'er?
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invest071 year, 1 month ago
Ricky D,
Being the good little liberal that you are you quote the Huffington Post.
Fact: There are no "Good" Muslims. The silence from the mythical "Good" Muslim community is deafening when it comes time to condemn radical Islam. They say nothing and do nothing. So what does this tell you about the mythical "Good" Muslims?
Crap like this is what I expect from a Darwin Kool Aid drinker like you.
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JohnQPublicComment removed: User banned.
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ThePromisedOne1 year, 1 month ago
INVEST, your comment was quite funny. You can go to ANY Muslim website and they will condemn terrorism. Go to CAIR.com, go to ISNA.com and .net to name a few.
You said, "Fact: There are no "Good" Muslims" Well i condemn "radical Islam" so your statement is a typical Islamophobe comment.
Have a nice one.
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Waterkeeper1 year, 1 month ago
Or this:
Imam Mohammed, the son of Elijah Muhammad who founded the Nation of Islam, addressed the audience on the role of "Islam and Higher Education." While the Imam lightly touched on the subject of formal education, his main theme was on the moral education of mankind.
"Muhammad, the messenger of Allah, told us that 'the ink of the scholar is more precious than the blood of the martyr,'" the Imam told a warm and respectful audience of about 300 people.
"When he said that the 'ink of the scholar is more precious than the blood of the martyr' he was telling us that armed struggle is not the answer. Education and morality; those two things will propel Muslims out of the condition they are in today."
Well spoken words.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AI...
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squirt-gun1 year, 1 month ago
How would the Imam respond to these facts?...And they are facts!
http://www.terrorismawareness.org/know-about-ji...
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eddie1071 year, 1 month ago
I agree with a ton of stuff in this article,
"He (or she) is a religious demagogue on a collision course with modernity."
The fact that this is in no way, a new problem that is happening just because we have now invaded Iraq. It has been brewing for quite some time, and as any entity that feels threatened, it becomes aggressive.
Lets face it, the world is growing smaller, the youth are finding ways of discovering new thoughts and behaviors that are infuriating the elder Muslims in control.
The only way that they feel they can stop the wave of information and knowledge, is to stop those behind it. Which is anyone who isn't Muslim.
It cant happen overnight, but the youth of the Middle East are our greatest hope. And that is why they deserve to be protected.
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spellbreak1 year, 1 month ago
In the library recently I found a book YOU ARE BEING LIED TO. I think that was the name. It had one article from 1999. It reported the media coverage of terrorism, where it occurs and who does it. They said a respected international organization reported something like 160 attacks in one part of the world by one group of people. A number of attacks in another area by another group of people and about eleven attacks in yet another geographical area by yet another people.
The 160 attacks and the next highest number of attacks by area were nearly all ignored. No comment was made about their religious or ethnic assocations.
But media attention went to the place and people of the eleven attacks as if they were the only people and place doing any of this.
The eleven cases (and world terrorism) were blamed on Muslims, because they were Muslims. (Nearly all of the other Muslim areas had no problems).
The 160 were done by Catholics in S. America. Others were by Hindus.
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Mr-opinion1 year, 1 month ago
I am so glad to find someone that reads, and actually forms an opinion based on information rather then plublicly regurgitated hatred generating garbage
I made a similar comment in a different discussion, without your reference
"Car bombs wern't the creation of modern muslim extreemists, Catholics and Protestants blew each other up regularly, The Cathlic church had more horendous torture structures than the chineese, and directly started more than one war and extermination attempt.."
Hate is great isn't it, don't understand it, hate it, easy.
But that exact publicly followed, governmentally & press created and distibuted hatefull redderic is what makes the current reality come true. They didn't hate us till we meddled in their lives, claiming to know better
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spellbreak1 year, 1 month ago
The Danish cartoon matter has been selectively discussed. All the reporting has been from the standpoint of the Danish or other editors or of people not of the group attacked. There was no reporting of the Muslim cleric's experience. The reaction to the cartoons came in January, months after the cartoons were published. There was no report about what had transpired in the intervening.
Whether or not drawing of people, including the prophet, are approved by Muslims (sometimes they are) the cartoons were an attack on Muslims in a way which should be well understood. In the the United States, the effect of such attacks are so well known that the Supreme Court has used the term "fighting words" and they are known as hate propaganda. Recent cases of the actor's assault on the cop, the comic's words to his audience and the comedians parody of a peoples' language all resulted in outrage. We understand these things. We understand defamation.
Except when we speak of Muslims.
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Charlson1 year, 1 month ago
All the examples of non-muslim intolerant incidences were all done by an individual. It would be a more valid argument if you cited examples of large numbers of people in groups who ravage and kill because they felt their religion was insulted. Protest are fine and dandy until it turns violent and innocent lives are snuffed out.
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ThePromisedOne1 year, 1 month ago
Charlson
Muslims don't make cartoons of people religious figures or insult their holy books. So you won't get that same reaction. Especially in such a sensitive time in the world where Muslims feel they are being attacked, they will lash out. If the riot doesn't involve religion are you saying it is ok then? Otherwise there have been many riots in the US about other things. The riots in LA for example.
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spellbreak1 year, 1 month ago
I appreciate your comment.
For those who may not know ...
Recent examples are Hindus (they have been going on for some time.) and Christians (in S.E. Asia).
Protests which turn violent are part of U.S. history.
There were protests awhile ago by Catholics over the questions of Saints, I believe. -- In Europe and in Mexico.
I find strange the agruments, the justifications, which were put forth regarding the Danish cartoons. Such arguments would not be accepted by the public or the media if the subjects were different. We know better and why.
If the Pope had, in Regensburg, made a speech repeating the Blood libel of the Jews, instead of a defamation of Muslims, it would have been illegal in Germany. (In fact, the defamation of Muslims was probably illegal, but who would jail the Pope?)
The religious aspect is not important. That it is part of a continuing attack and persecution of the people is very important.
It was hate propaganda of the first water.
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Mr-opinion1 year, 1 month ago
Starting with the intro line to the articly I have one question only only one question on that subject.
" Anyone who believes that men should determine how women dress .... to conform to the religious taboos of Islam is not a Muslim moderate "
So what about the french who outlawed the wearing of their garb, to comform to their view of the world ????????????
Don't judge what you don't understand
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jimdoze1 year, 1 month ago
"Don't judge what you don't understand"
Seems to me that it is human to judge. Clearly you have adjudged that someone does not understand.
A westerner judges that someone isn't moderate if they determine how women dress. If you think otherwise, ask a western woman. Oops! Maybe there's the catch. Now ask an Islamic woman, who is free of potential retribution, what she thinks about it.
Here's a question to consider: Why are Islamic men so incredibly fearful of women?
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ThePromisedOne1 year, 1 month ago
"Why are Islamic men so incredibly fearful of women?"
WE aren't. What makes you think so? The question you should be asking is why are western men so fearful of women. Are you honestly going to sit here and forget the history of this country? Like when women actually got the right to vote for example? The treatment of women in other western countries?
"Now ask an Islamic woman, who is free of potential retribution, what she thinks about it."
Yes, lets ask one. Anyone that I have met has never claimed they had to wear one for fear of "retribution" and if they are indeed forced then that is wrong, as that is a choice between her and God.
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Thinkfirstspoutlater1 year, 1 month ago
I'm a Muslim woman and I haven't met a Muslim man that seemed to fear me. That's just another misconception fostered by american men and women who just can't fathom that most Muslim women wear hijab because they want to, they love it, and it's about their relationship with God and not a man. Answer this. Why is it that western men are so afriad of women who choose to cover themselves and don't find being objectified as a sexual object flattering. I have it, but why must I flaunt it? I don't get that mentality. Don't be such a little boy. There's more to a woman than her body.
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Charlson1 year, 1 month ago
I judge that in France if the women refused to conform to French society's norm, they were not stoned to death. But also in France a muslim woman was stoned to death because she dated outside of her faith by muslim men.
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javamini1 year, 1 month ago
Thanks for the post Ricky. I'm not an atheist, but some of my favorite people are. (and most sensible friends) (I'm a recovering brainwashed Babtite.)Looking more for a gnostic journey FWIW. Also acknowledge it may just be major brain circuit shorts that I choose to call god. Whatever!?! You don't have to not believe to have some damn sense.
Back to the topic, I love Sam Harris. He is very well spoken, intelligent and humorous, and I wish some of our more close minded would listen to him. I just heard of him at another forum and listened to him at http://www.fora.tv/searchresults.php?keywordsea... harris&page=1
The View from the end of the World
Long, but if you have the time, exceptionally well spoken. Love what he says about stem cell, I work with dying kids, touched me specifically. Thanks again (and no I don't believe god will grow back amputees, we screw things up, we fix it - accountability.)(back to sense!)
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Aotearoa1 year, 1 month ago
Interesting and thought provoking RD. There is just too much religion for my liking. You have these fanatics and hipocrites preaching to us how we should live our lives but at the same time kill, rape and destroy those that don't abide by what they deem morally correct. Religion , when interpreted wrongly, teaches people bigotry, arrogance, intolerance,sexism and selfishness. John Lennon had the right idea, "imagine........and no religion too.....". I reckoned we'd be a lot better of as human beings if we didn't have religion.
Leve leva e malanga kae tau.
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aceofspades11 year, 1 month ago
Immoderate moderates sounds a lot like Conservative Christians
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Petom11 year, 1 month ago
Moderate Muslims are the ones who clean off their swords before decapitating their hostages. Rape victims are to be mercifully shot, not savagely beaten and stoned.
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ThePromisedOne1 year, 1 month ago
Marinedad
This comment only shows more ignorance and intolerance. Other than the fact that it was corny. You don't mind though droping bombs as long as humans arent attached to them. What happens to the bombs after they fall, you close your eyes and have happy thoughts.
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1-2-Oscar1 year, 1 month ago
The article is ill-conceived, poorly thought out, and badly written. It does, however, generally support the fundamental view presented in this forum by member RickyDawkins--that people of faith can get along quite well with everyone else if they will simply abandon their faith.
That event is scheduled to immediately follow the porcine aviation demonstration.
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