Religion – Whenever the Supreme Court makes a decision restricts the intrusion of religion into the affairs of government, a flood of protests follow on the grounds that they conflict with the wishes and intents of the "founding fathers." Such a view of American history is completely contrary to known facts.
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In response to an article I read here on Netscape earlier revising history I suggest reading this instead. The overwhelming amount of evidence for the founders of the U.S. being mostly deists is incontrovertible. These men believed in freedom of and from religious doctrine. For every quote where Jefferson finds value in some aspect of religion, you will find 2 dozen where he denounces organized religion. Any casual student of history knew that until the revisionists started twisting and spinning. Someone even tried to paint Franklin as a Christian. LOL.!!!
Historical context is generally not the strong suit of many people.
People forget that the Founders were before Darwin and in the heart of the Enlightenment, which spoke much about Nature and Nature's god.
Just because I say 'Good Heavens' in colloquial speech does not believe in a Judeo-Christian heaven.
Bkumm,
Thankyou for putting in words what I wanted to say!!!
Hey, no sweat. I'm in the process of writing an article about my disagreement with atheists as well. Sometime this week.
But, you're right, of course, the Founders were 'Christians', but mostly in name only.
One must ALSO remember that many of the churches that these men went to would be unrecognizable to us today.
From "The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway":
"I'd rather trust a man who doesn't shout what he's found."
That's my doctrine.
RFE:
'From "The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway":
"I'd rather trust a man who doesn't shout what he's found."
That's my doctrine.'
Very good words to live by.
A rose by any other name is still a rose and smells just as sweet,,, Deists believe in a higher power so yeah GOD is the same no?
When I sneeze in America, most people say, "God bless you." But if I sneeze around my students, many say, "Gesundheit." In German, that means to your health. Just because my family says God bless you, does not mean they are ultra religious.
True, and when the founders are said to be Deists it means the opposite of being an atheist. One doesn't have to be zealot merely because they believe in a supreme being or that they are pushing their beliefs on others. This nation was founded based on freedom to worship or not to worship, however if you look at history it was the Protestant Christian masses that came here to live their lives, it wasn't a mass exodus of pagans for the most part. Can we agree on that point?
Yes, a supreme being and a god does mean the same to me too, but that supreme being does not have to be the Christian God. Many other religions have gods; the Christian God is not the only candidate for the position of the supreme being.
You are also correct that most of the population was Christian at the time. It follows that the US was founded primarily by Christians, but it does not follow that it was founded on Christian principles, or that church and state should not be separate.
I have come to believe that GOD doesn't care what he is called or how He is worshiped,,,,, I could be wrong in that thinking but there it is.
It is my understanding that GOD prefers to be called 'Stubble Knutcracker"...
But I've been wrong before...
Conquer...have you met Beowulf yet?
I'm probably about to...
Caught a glance at his stuff at the bottem of this thread..haven't got to it yet though...
I do believe there may have been an agnostic or two among the Founding Fathers.
S/he?
Maybe God is a woman who knows,,,,
Slate posted on 2007-07-17 08:38:55,
"Maybe God is a woman who knows."
The LORD always called Himself a "He" in the Scriptures.
Even Jesus, a man, called Himself the Almighty (Rev. 1:8).
The Holly Spirit is considered the 'softer side' of God.
I also do not believe in the White European Caucasian version of Jesus. Given the area he is more middle eastern.
>>The Holly Spirit is considered the 'softer side' of God.
Correct. But All 3 (Father, Son & Holy Spirit) are also 1. So, "God" encompasses all 3 at once, and each individually. Meaning (kinda / sorta) that "God" is both the masculine & feminine.
In the Eastern Orthodox Church, Jesus is called the "BrideGroom" & the church is His "Bride." Just an interesting aside.
>>I also do not believe in the White European Caucasian version of Jesus. Given the area he is more middle eastern.
It's amazing how many forget that. Reminds me of a line in "A Knight's Tale" when they're in France betting on Sir Ulrich. The Frenchmen said that the Pope was French, so one of Sir Ulrich's friends countered with "Jesus is English!"
(It's not as funny when I type it; I guess you had to be there)
JEWISH the Lord is and was and will always be JEWISH
Ya lost me on that. If I'm reading this correctly, you're saying Jesus was Jewish. Well, that's kind of a given.
And the followers of Christ are Christians - the first of whom happened to start out as Jews.
LOL! I am sorry, but all I see is a long, thin string of letters!
The LORD always called himself a "HE" in the Scriptures.
Actually the MEN who wrote the bible called him a HE because of their own prejudices and because they lived in a male dominated society which believed that all women were second class.
Um... you DO know that the bible was written (and translated) during a period of time where women were considered nothing more than property, and any references to women as nothing more than such were expunged?
Not to mention the fact that patriarchal systems refuse to refer a common people in feminine matters?
I guess you're like a typical fundamentalist, forgetting the passage which states that god isn't male nor female...
Man always called god HE. God has never called himself anything.
Slate posted on 2007-07-16 22:07:00,
"I have come to believe that GOD doesn't care what he is called or how He is worshiped...."
Actually, He does care what He is called or how He is worshiped. Jesus said, "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (Jn. 4:24).
"And in all that I have said to you, be circumspect and make no mention of the name of other gods, nor let it be heard from your mouth" (Ex. 23:13); "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).
Jesus called Himself the Almighty (Rev. 1:8).
beowulf,
So what you're saying is, if it's not in the Bible ain't thruthful? Now that's a chauvanist and novel idea! I guess the Bagadavita doesn't mention God or give it a name.
"So what you're saying is, if it's not in the Bible ain't thruthful?"
No. However, in terms of ethics, morality, and theology, if it goes against the Word of God, Jesus Christ, then it is not truth.
Beowulf,
How about if, in terms of ethics, morality, and theology, it goes against the teachings of Buddha, it isn't truthfull?
I'm questioning your terms for what's "the truth", not your faith. It seems to me that you're being an absolutist.
"The Buddha's Teaching was recorded in the Tipitaka several hundred years after the Buddha passed away, and this text was then copied and recopied over a period of thousands of years. The teachings were probably recorded very well, but it is possible to doubt that the reader will now understand what those who recorded the teachings meant. For me to refer merely to the texts all the time would be like guaranteeing the truth of the claims of another, claims of which I am not certain. But the things that I tell you I am able to guarantee, because I speak from my own direct experience." - from "An Interview with an Awakened Master - Luangpor Teean - The Singular Quality of an Ordinary Monk" by Vatana Supromajakr, M.D.
I meant to give this a negative....
Marleneborner posted on 2007-07-19 18:33:37,
"...the passage which states that god isn't male nor female..."
I have read the Bible thrice and did not find any "passage" which states that God is not male nor female, Marleneborner.
There are plenty of Bible passages, however, that say Jesus is God come as a man. :)
Where and when did god himself actually say anthing? Everything we know and or believe about god or gods is based on the theories and musing of man. THe bible was written by men. THe Koran was written by men. God has never expressed an opinion that can be directly attributed to him. Man does not speak for god. If there is indeed a god, I would think he would be ******ed at what man has done to his fellow man in gods name.
Quoth Slate: "I have come to believe that GOD doesn't care what he is called or how He is worshiped..."
I agree...problem is, those who are absolutely certain that they have the One Revealed Truth would be happy to say that God will send you straight to hell for saying that...oh, but I see Beowulf has already shown up.
Zippy: No. I am absolutely certain the there is revealed truth available to all who would seek it, yet Jesus said, "all manner of sin and blasphemy shall (potential) be forgiven unto men..." Matthew 12:31. Rev. S
Candida posted on 2007-07-16 22:01:49,
"It follows that the US was founded primarily by Christians, but it does not follow that it was founded on Christian principles...."
Actually, it does follow that it was founded on Judeo-Christian principles. Look back at the Calvinistic documents the founders used for the founding documents.
(The references are provided for you already in this thread.)
The Founders used MANY MANY sources to write the Constitution. Not least of which were the writings of such Enlightenment individuals as John Stuart Mill, Locke, Hume and Voltaire. Much of what was put down in the Constitution that came from Christianity had to do with English Common Law or reactions to same. Things such as 'Freedom of Religion' certainly didn't come from Christianity.
Wow...I didn't know I had so much in common with our founding fathers and mothers!
root of the word Deism is the Latin word deus, which means "god"
Deists hold that religious beliefs must be founded on human reason and observed features of the natural world, and that these sources reveal the existence of one God or supreme being.
A god is a god by what ever name we associate with that mythical being. Allah and Jehovah are one and the same. THe animal skull representing a higher being worshipped by a tribe in deepest darkest africa is the same god as allah or jehovah. Different names and methods of worship do not demonstrate any difference between these gods. Zeus, Hera, Allah, and all of the other gods were created by man to explain that which we cannot explain. No other reason for them to purport to exist.
We can, however, we have to accept that some colonies were founded by Catholics. We also have to accept that the colonies were already settled by native Americans. Why should the Christians push them out of their territory?
Ummm, pretty much for the same reasons they were pushing each other out of their territories!!!
And Rhode Island was the *only* colony to have true religious freedom.
Who cares what religion the founding fathers believed in? Times have changed over 200 years and I for one will not be held to principals that are dated, archaic and have no place in a modern free thinking society. Everyone has the freedom to worship as they feel fit. They do not have the right to insist that I live my life based on the principals of their belief. This is the rationale behind the seperation of church and state. The state does not have the authority to impress a moral, religious or ethical code on a law abiding citizen. Religious zealots in this country do not have the right to force their system of beliefs on the rest of the populace. Live you own life and leave mine alone.
Slate posted on 2007-07-16 21:51:32,
"...however if you look at history it was the Protestant Christian masses that came here to live their lives, it wasn't a mass exodus of pagans for the most part."
Good.
Slate's supposedly got a version of the Bible that has Jesus throwing "tax collectors" out of the Temple in Jerusalem. I've asked what Bible he is using, but he keeps stalling and hasn't gotten back to me yet about his nonsense.
It's called cultural deism, and cultural deism covers the invocations and manifestations of the Deity in our governmental institutions.
I think the reasons the Christians got so mad at the Hindu prayer is that if we start having a rotation, eventually Satanists will have a chance to lead the congressional prayer.
Or Pastafarians!
The more the merrier! The conservatives should be quite happy to let the marketplace determine whose prayer is best.