Good ol' Christian tolerance »
Posted by: RickyDawkins 1 year, 1 month ago675 Comments Report this Story
Christian activists interrupted a Hindu prayer in the Senate. It's absurd but so typical of Christian extremists that they would freak out at the imposition of a prayer that does not reflect their beliefs. Question: WHY is there a prayer of any sort in the US Senate?
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RickyDawkins1 year, 1 month ago
The Family Research Council, the most powerful lobbying organization of the religious right, spoke strongly against religious pluralism when a Hindu priest offered an invocation for Congress. They wrote:
"(W)hile it is true that the United States of America was founded on the sacred principle of religious freedom for all, that liberty was never intended to exalt other religions to the level that Christianity holds in our country's heritage."
"Our Founders expected that Christianity -- and no other religion -- would receive support from the government as long as that support did not violate peoples' consciences and their right to worship. They would have found utterly incredible the idea that all religions, including paganism, be treated with equal deference."
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/07/good...
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RickyDawkins1 year, 1 month ago
"WHY is there a prayer of any sort in the US Senate? I understood that your constitution forbade any establishment of religion."
The pro-prayer activists do not usually read the US constitution. On those rare occasions when they do read parts of it, they always interpret those parts to agree with their pre-existing opinions, no matter how contorted and ridiculous that interpretation is. In other words, they treat the US constitution much like they treat their own bible - but with less respect.
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/07/good...
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MichaelRhodenteComment removed: User banned.18 Replies
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Silverghost1 year, 1 month ago
"I therefore beg leave to move that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and it's blessing on our deliberations, be held in this assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service." -Benjamin Franklin, Continental Congress, Philadelphia, June 18, 1787. -Rev. S
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Beowulf2101 year, 1 month ago
LOL
Read through this thread and see just how somebody left giant footprint(s) on the antmound. The secular ants are just crawling everywhere looking to bite the foot that just stomped & shook them up. Ahahahaha.
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MichaelRhodenteComment removed: User banned.6 Replies
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sezwho1 year, 1 month ago
get a like Mike. logic used by you and the fundamentalist right is circular at best and grasping at straws at worst. A REAL CHRISTIAN would not hesitate to welcome any religion into his/her house of worship. A REAL CHRISTIAN would not hesitate to embrace those whose prayers are different from their own. A REAL CHRISTIAN is not now and never has been threatened by anyone or anything else.
So who the h#ll are you anyways Mikey?
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ALL4IT1 year, 1 month ago
The problem is that for a 99% of those self defined as christians, to be one means to belong (somewhere).
It is easier to accept the christian dogma than understand and integrate what Math, Chemistry, Physics and Biology have been discovering.
They don't really care about what Jesus is said to have said. They just need an easy way out and be part of a gang.
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toph19731 year, 1 month ago
Actually, they don't. Evidence has turned up that is exactly the opposite. The 10 plagues actually happened around 1500 bc in Egypt due to a volcano. The exodeus never happened, as Egyptians didn't have Jewish slaves, no archeological evidence has ever been uncovered as well. There are many instances where the bible and the actual record conflicts.
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Beowulf2101 year, 1 month ago
"A REAL CHRISTIAN would not hesitate to welcome any religion into his/her house of worship. A REAL CHRISTIAN would not hesitate to embrace those whose prayers are different from their own."
(sezwho 2007-07-14 22:39:07)
AHEM.
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds. (2 Jn. 1:9-11, NKJV)
Brush up on your Bible there, sezwho.
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RickyDawkins1 year, 1 month ago
http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/
http://scienceblogs.com/evolutionblog/
http://scienceblogs.com/bushwells/
http://scienceblogs.com/afarensis/
http://scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts/
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/
http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/
http://scienceblogs.com/cortex/
http://scienceblogs.com/islandofdoubt/
http://scienceblogs.com/authority/
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ProudBlueTexan1 year, 1 month ago
Read Thomas Paine's "The Age of Reason."
Hell, I'll make it easy: http://www.amazon.com/Age-Reason-Thomas-Paine/d...
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Beowulf2101 year, 1 month ago
I like how Benjamin Franklin commented:
"At present I shall only give you my opinion that, though your reasons are subtle, and may prevail with some readers, you will not succeed so as to change the general sentiments of mankind on that subject, and the consequence of printing this piece will be, a great deal of odium drawn upon yourself, mischief to you, and no benefit to others. He that spits against the wind spits in his own face."
Franklin's closing statement:
"I would advise you, therefore, not to attempt unchaining the tiger, but to burn this piece before it is seen by any other person, whereby you will save yourself a great deal of mortification by the enemies it may raise against you, and perhaps a great deal of regret and repentance. If men are so wicked with religion,what would they be if without it?"
www. constitution. org/ primarysources/ franklintopaine. html
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Beowulf2101 year, 1 month ago
Another commentator:
This [Age of Reason] is the book that really undid Paine and brought about the famous doggerel: "Here lies Tom Paine, who wrote in liberty's defense / And in his 'Age of Reason' lost his 'Common Sense.'"
astore. amazon. com/ tomgriffininf-20/ detail/ 0451528891
Hehe.
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tkyrchncs1 year, 1 month ago
A minimal amount of research will show you that many of them quite vigorously opposed any religious involvement in government OR govt. involvement in religion. The Senate of the US invites clergymen to pray for them/lead them in prayer and should behave like gentlemen and eject anyone who is being rude or belligerant to their invited guests. Nobody but the senators themselves should be allowed to act like mannerless swine in the senate chamber.
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TCmuench1 year, 1 month ago
Prayer does not equal "religion" for starters. The sparation of church and state prohibits the government from endorsing any particular religion or establishing a "church" as England did way back when.
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bubba21 year, 1 month ago
Well, the Family Research Council is WRONG!
Their was no "Christianity" form of religion going on when this country was created. MOST of the founding fathers were Deists. They believed in a GOD of the Bible but they also believed - and wrote about it a LOT - that religion needed to stay OUT of government and vica versa.
The MAIN reason those men and women came to THIS continent was to get AWAY from a government that was TELLING them how to believe!
I AM a Christian, and these extremists really drive me crazy with their twisted logic and they Theocratic agenda.
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jordan111 year, 1 month ago
they believed in a GOD of the Bible but they also believed - and wrote about it a LOT - that religion needed to stay OUT of government and vica versa.>>>>
Bubba2; that sentence above might have been an error, but just in case, I thought I'd share this with you. http://www.religioustolerance.org/deism.htm
Deists don't believe in the 'god of the bible'.
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bubba21 year, 1 month ago
Please specify those 'Christian' congregations that the creators of the Consitution attended.
Yes, Congress has a prayer before every session - one of the 'cruxes' of this post.
That prayer is supposed to be an ECUMENICAL prayer - in other words, it does not get specific enough to portray or allude to a specific religion.
I am NOT saying that the founding fathers did not believe in any God, and I am NOT saying that they think all citizens should be Godless.
What the the founding fathers DID say was to keep religion OUT of government and to keep government OUT of religion.
They LEFT England and Europe to GET AWAY FROM a government that TOLD them HOW to "believe".
Even JESUS did NOT force ANYONE to believe in him. He talked to people and reached out to people and told them what they should do, but he LEFT IT UP TO THEM to make their OWN choices.
Government has NO business telling ANYONE what God or religion they should "believe" - period.
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tkyrchncs1 year, 1 month ago
While some people did come here because of religious persecution, most did not. And nearly all of the founding fathers were born here. I believe also if you check that most were at least nominally members of the Church of England. The official religion of the Empire. www.adhere... and the links on it give a lot of good information
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Silverghost1 year, 1 month ago
Bubba: You are half right, the government was to not interfere with the church, nor establish a state church.
But they welcomed religious influence & indeed found that the government which they proposed unfit for them who did not have faith. The Founding Fathers attended different churches at times, but there were members of Episcopal, Calvinist,Methodist, Lutheran, Roman Catholic & Quaker Churches. Most of them welcomed prayer from all these.
And yes...Jesus did not force anyone, but He told the truth, leaving it up to the people to receive or reject it. Yet He told the disciples to "go into all the world and preach the Gospel."
Are you upset, because some would try to do that here? -Rev. S
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JackofallChems1 year, 1 month ago
Do a little more research, jordan11, and you'll find out that the first amendment was written to keep the government from having it's own "name brand" religion, and to keep the government from forcing everyone to worship the same religion(s). That's it, nothing else. The "wall of separation of church and state" was a comment in a letter Jefferson wrote long after the Constitution was already written and agreed upon, and it's a comment that's inconsistent with what the first amendment actually says and what it was intended to mean. There is no constitutional wall keeping religious organizations out of politics (they humiliate themselves faster and disappear quicker if they do - look at Muslim fundamentalists in Yemen for a contemporary example), and there's - constitutionally, anyway - nothing stopping politicians from speaking well of their own religious preferences on government time. Now go back to square one and redo your analysis. I'll be lurking... :-)
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Beowulf2101 year, 1 month ago
Nobody is physically born a "Christian", RickyDawkins. It involves a choice and/or change of the heart.
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david_nwpa1 year, 1 month ago
Right you are Beowulf. However, why is it that the choice you make as a Christian needs to be broadcast before the entire Senate? What place is it for hecklers to disrupt the order of the Senate when it is in session?
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mntnman4441 year, 1 month ago
Yes Beowulf...why do you support freedom of religion but agree with shouting down someones right to free speech?
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Beowulf2101 year, 1 month ago
If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
(1 Cor. 6:1-3.)
Like it or not, Christians will (at the appointed time) judge the world, including angels. We will reign. See also Revelation 20:1-6.
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AmericanIdiot1 year, 1 month ago
Joseph Smith was actually a distant cousin of mine. The word is, according to family histories, Joseph had a little trouble with the law, something to do with debts, when he came up with his golden tablets idea. Problem solved.
I'm kind of broke now, too. Maybe I'll make up a religion as well...
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disraeli1 year, 1 month ago
Beowulf.
Your argument is predicated on your assumption that the bible is correct. How do you know that the Bhagavad Gita is not the true word of God. If that were the case then on points of divergence between the two sets of writings the Bhagavad Gita would trump the Bible?
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david_nwpa1 year, 1 month ago
Religious argument with citations from the Bible are logically irrelevant and deflect the question posed. Answer my question sir, who has the right or audacity to interrupt the proceedings of the US Senate?
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ProudBlueTexan1 year, 1 month ago
Beowulf, spew that stuff at other believers. Trust me, you won't go to Hell for not spewing at me.
respectfully,
Grendel
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DeadXXXManXXXTalkin1 year, 1 month ago
''Like it or not, Christians will (at the appointed time) judge the world, including angels. We will reign''
Judge the world, judge angels, judge trivial cases, judge the ungodly, judge not lest ye be judged, and by all means, reign away
just wait until you're dead to do it
and remember your 'kingdom is not of this earth'
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Beowulf2101 year, 1 month ago
DeadXXXManXXXTalkin posted, "...judge not lest ye be judged..."
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment (Jn. 7:24).
DeadXXXManXXXTalkin posted, "...and remember your 'kingdom is not of this earth'"
Nebuchadnezzar's vision:
The whole statue collapsed into a heap of iron, clay, bronze, silver, and gold. The pieces were crushed as small as chaff on a threshing floor, and the wind blew them all away without a trace. But the rock that knocked the statue down became a great mountain that covered the whole earth. (Dan. 2:35, NLT)
Interpretation:
During the reigns of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed; no one will ever conquer it. It will shatter all these kingdoms into nothingness, but it will stand forever. (Dan. 2:44)
Jesus came and Jesus triumphed.
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tkyrchncs1 year, 1 month ago
This passage says that if you have a dispute with a fellow Christian you are to take it before the church, because in the end, the saints will judge all creation. What in the world does this have to do with rudeness to an invited guest of the US Senate? The hecklers should have been pitched out on their ears.
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Silverghost1 year, 1 month ago
At one time. They were younger than I. 1963 they outlawed Bible reading & Prayer in school. I was out of school & the deterioration started, drifting away from God. -Rev. S
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RickyDawkins1 year, 1 month ago
"There is nothing to be gained by shoving atheism down people's throats."
Atheism is based upon thinking rationally. I think that is a plus. And for the record, teaching science (Evolution) is not equivalent to proselytizing religion.
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Candida1 year, 1 month ago
katiecakes: "yet you have know problem shoving atheism down people's throats."
Since atheism has no priests, no missionaries, no churches, and no organization at all, it would be difficult for them to shove atheism down people's throats. If you read articles posted here, or anywhere else, by atheists and about atheism, you do it out of your own free will.
If I chose to read religious articles or the Bible, I have no right to complain that religion is shoved down my throat. However, if people come to my door to convert me, or if my children are forced to pray in school, I do feel that my right to freedom from religion is being violated.
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Candida1 year, 1 month ago
I know. They confuse science and religion. They seem to believe that science is just another form of religion, perhaps atheism, which they also treat as a religion.
The son of one of my colleagues refused to take psychology in university because, as he said, it included learning about evolution and he didn't believe in evolution. It was hopeless to try to explain that in science one doesn't have to accept anything on the basis of belief; it's a method of inquiry where any hypothesis or theory can be rejected if there is sufficient evidence to do so. For him, and I must add that in any other respect he is a bright and normal kid, science requites belief in the scientific theories just like religions require belief in some kind of supernatural being(s) and the teachings of the sacred texts.
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Beowulf2101 year, 1 month ago
"However, why is it that the choice you make as a Christian needs to be broadcast before the entire Senate?"
The command of Jesus:
"Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature" (Mk. 16:15).
"And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles" (Mt. 10:18).
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BobGrumbine1 year, 1 month ago
Especially so since the Xians led by Conquistador puppet Ronny Raygun began building that thermonuclear Doomsday Machine, at Yucca Mountain 90 miles northwest of Las Vegas NV (my back yard) on a tectonic fault line in a major earthquake zone, so as to accomplish their perennial objective of causing the now technologically feasible literal End of the World. A large local resident provided a graphic opinion on the Yucca Mountain project which appears in my album "Yucca Mountain Doomsday Machine" on various photo display sites, quite similar to your observation "Horse puckey!"
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tkyrchncs1 year, 1 month ago
"And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles" (Mt. 10:18)
Wait to be brought.
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MichaelRhodenteComment removed: User banned.12 Replies
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MichaelRhodenteComment removed: User banned.3 Replies
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deathray1 year, 1 month ago
OK, now, since I spent several years in a yeshova and I don't know a thing about your religious beliefs, I'll respond seriously to your assertion:
The traditional definition of a Jew is "someone born to a Jewish mother or who has converted to Judaism." The requirement for a valid conversion is that the candidate for conversion understand the obligations of being a Jew, show commitment to fulfilling these obligations, (for a male) to undergo Brit milah (ritual circumcision) or one of its exceptions, perform immersion in a mikvah, and satisfy the scrutiny of a Beit din, or rabbinical court. The beit din act not only as judges but as witnesses in the course of conversion, and it follows that its members must be kosher, i.e. suitable and qualified for these purposes.
For a male convert, then, a ritual circumcision and immersion in a mikvah are required to become Jewish, and I've never heard of a Jewish male who has not undergone at least a ritual circumcision.
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AmericanIdiot1 year, 1 month ago
A person born of a Jewish mother is of the tribe of Israel. A jew is an Israelite who does not know his tribe. I myself am of the tribe of Levi, the descendants of Aaron, brother of Moses. An uncircumcised Jew is like a gentile, but the conversion process is somewhat relaxed. A circumcised Jew without religious education is an "am-aretz", or ignoramus. Though they may sin, they won't be punished by a beit din, or court of law, because they don't know better. A Jew who has Bar or Bat Mitzvah is liable to observe 613 laws (in theory) from the Torah. The great majoriey of Jewish law cannot be observed in a foreign land, and especially without a standing temple. The actual laws a Jew must follow are set out in Maimonides "Guide to the Perplexed" and a more general guide to behavior is found in Pirkei Avos, or "Sayings of the Father."
Hope that helped.
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RickyDawkins1 year, 1 month ago
Judaism shares some of the characteristics of a nation, an ethnicity, a religion, and a culture, making the definition of who is a Jew vary slightly depending on whether a religious or national approach to identity is used. Generally, in modern secular usage, Jews include three groups: people who practice Judaism and have a Jewish ethnic background (sometimes including those who do not have strictly matrilineal descent), people without Jewish parents who have converted to Judaism; and those Jews who, while not practicing Judaism as a religion, still identify themselves as Jewish by virtue of their family's Jewish descent and their own cultural and historical identification with the Jewish people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group
"The ethnicity and the religion of Judaism are strongly interrelated, and converts are both included and have been absorbed within the Jewish people."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish
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RickyDawkins1 year, 1 month ago
A true Christian is a person who has put his or her faith and trust in the person of Jesus Christ and fact that He died on the cross as payment for sins and rose again on the third day to obtain victory over death and to give eternal life to all who believe in Him. John 1:12 tells us: "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name." A true Christian is indeed a child of God, a part of God's true family, and one who has been given new life in Christ. The mark of a true Christian is love for others and obedience to God's Word (1 John 2:4; 1 John 2:10).
Have you made a decision for Christ because of what you have read here? If so, please click on the "I have accepted Christ today" button below. If you would like us to contact you, please enter your email address as well.
http://www.gotquestions.org/what-is-a-Christian...
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Candida1 year, 1 month ago
MichaelRhodente: "judaism is the religion, jewish is ethnicity."
So those who convert to Judaism, or whose father is Jewish and are raised as Jews, aren't Jews? What are they?
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DeadXXXManXXXTalkin1 year, 1 month ago
you have no idea how funny you're being. the proper spelling of 'mohel' should be a clue
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david_nwpa1 year, 1 month ago
Thank you for the correction. I sort of figured I might have those wrong.
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deathray1 year, 1 month ago
Bar Mitzvah, traditionally, is the ritual associated with a young man becoming an adult, meaning that he can be counted in a minyan, or the minimum of ten adult male Jews (in the Orthodox tradition) required to hold certain kinds of religious services. Reform, Liberal and Reconstructionist movements include women in a minyan, as they also ordain women as rabbis.
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david_nwpa1 year, 1 month ago
Former Catholics with lots of kids call it minivan. Not quite the same thing, I suppose, but it does entitle us to belong to little league soccer.
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RickyDawkins1 year, 1 month ago
Actually, becoming Christian involves teaching and often *brainwashing*. But you wouldn't know, because they probably got you when you were very young.
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spkguy1 year, 1 month ago
doggammit
"Yeah that's another good one. I allow them in when they call in hopes of discussing Egyptology"
I have really good way of keeping them from bothering you while you eat your dinner.
Get your brother or sister to lie down on your front sidewalk.
Then draw a chalk line around him or her and then randomly toss Awake and watchtower's around along with some spent shot gun casings. I guarantee they will never bother you again.
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MichaelRhodenteComment removed: User banned.27 Replies
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RickyDawkins1 year, 1 month ago
This United States is a country founded on Christianity. This is the biggest sack of horse ****** and only an EXTREME MORON would believe something this retarded. The VERY FIRST AMENDMENT of the constitution is based on the Separation of church and state. The paramount reason why the forefathers came to this country was for religious freedom. They listed it as their top goal in forming America. Matter of fact most of the fore fathers weren't even Christian, but deist, atheist and agnostic. I could site thousands of quotes which ****** on this lie from Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, Paine, etc. but I shouldn't need to, considering the reading of the constitution is a 4th grade curriculum requirement.
http://www.evilbible.com/common_lies.htm
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MichaelRhodenteComment removed: User banned.1 Reply
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