Religion – HARTFORD, Conn. - Sen. Barack Obama told a church convention Saturday that some right-wing evangelical leaders have exploited and politicized religious beliefs in an effort to sow division.
"There was even a time when the Christian Coalition determined that its number one legislative priority was tax cuts for the rich," Obama said. "I don't know what Bible they're reading, but it doesn't jibe with my version."
Amen, Obama
Other quotes from today's speech;
'But I'm hopeful because I think there's an awakening taking place in America. People are coming together around a simple truth Ã;¢;; that we are all connected, that I am my brother's keeper; I am my sister's keeper. And that it's not enough to just believe this we have to do our part to make it a reality.
We all have it within our power to make this a better world. Because we all have the capacity to... to rise above what divides us and come together to meet those challenges we can't meet alone.
...So let's rededicate ourselves to a new kind of politics a politics of conscience... If we can embrace a common destiny then I believe we'll not just help bring about a more hopeful day in America, we'll not just be caring for our own souls, we'll be doing God's work here on Earth'.
"...that we are all connected, that I am my brother's keeper; I am my sister's keeper. And that it's not enough to just believe this, we have to do our part to make it a reality." So Obama opposes abortion? Or does he prefer to forget about being his brother's keeper in that instance?
Did not see anything about abortion. THis is obviously your particular mission. No interested. Like most americans, stay out of my life. Unless you are prepared to take in unwanted babies addicted to crack and the like then leave me alone. YOu expect too much from people. We are selfish and it is all about ME> Humans are just another animal albeit somewhat thinking. What made humans the chosen animal. THe fact that we can to some extent: reason? No. Humans made humans the chosen. Humans wrote tests/books/essays to prove that they were the chosen. Not one tangible thread of evidence has ever been found to prove that god exists. THat's why it is called faith.
The old abortion club. This is a phony argument used by conservatives to beat on liberals. Conservatives think life is sacred until it leaves the womb. Then they try to cut off aid to mothers with dependent children, don't support maternity leave, don't adopt crack babies, don't support universal coverage or health care for children, think it is okay to bomb, blast, torture, imprison, deny status to, and subject people to all manner of humiliation and degredation after they leave the womb but for the first nine months in utero, your sacred. After that, your fodder for war, or the world economy. The evangelical approach to religion is the supply side variety. They don't believe in Darwin except in the social and economic sphere. Survival of the fittest.
Adopt a crack baby or save it for the gullable. Their righteousness is paper thin.
But Catholic, why is it that those on the right want to be their brother's keeper when it comes to abortion but when they are expected to be their brother's keeper in ways which involve self-sacrifice, their enthusiasm for helping vanishes? I guess it's just easier to play sex police than it is to adopt an orphan or fight for healthcare for our country's 9 million uninsured children.
I don't have any reason to believe Obama is any more truthful or ethical than Pat Robertson and his ilk.>>>>
Yes you do. You have his past. He didn't preach hate. He didn't buy diamond mines. He didn't aspire to be a billionaire. Matter of fact, he turned down a lucrative job to work with the poor in Chicago. He has lived what he talks about; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama
Oh, I see. A man living a good and contributory life is 'altruism', so that's bad. So what you're saying, is you think being an *ss is a good thing. Well, I'll bet you voted for the right person in 2004 then.
at this point in time, I would understand anyone mistrust of politicans. Not saying any info now is right or wrong, and some may deserve trust, but politicans should understand how our faith has been ruined, especially with this last fiasco, they will really need to prove themselves. But that will be a good thing in the end.
I also can understand 'mistrust.' But if how a man has lived his life doesn't do it for a person, nothing will. There's nothing left to evaluate with, & if that's not good enough, then there's no point in voting for anyone.
I'm just saying, it will probably take some time to rebuild trust that has been destroyed lately with politicans. I hope we can recognize a good one when we see them. Look how many people had faith and trust in Bush/Cheney and all the rest of this administration- now how many of those are so disillusioned, and rightfully so. I'm not saying there are a few out there that deserve credit for doing good things in the past, but because of all the bad apples lately, those good will have to work harder to prove themselves.
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Obama needn't be so euphemistic in his discussion. The time is past to elevate reason above religion, as the founding fathers intended.
Never forget, freedom of religion also means freedom from religion.
I'll take the Constitution over the Bible any day.
Interesting speech. You can watch it in full here (Windows Media):
http://www.uccforums.com/files/obama.wmv
Here is the Clinton Soprano's Spoof...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shKJk3Rph0E
Religion exploits what divides us, eh? Now here's a case of (you should pardon the expression) the pot calling the kettle black. Nobody exploits our differences as loudly or to a more fine degree than our congressmen and senators. They tell every group and minority of us that they're special, that the deserve something extra. Then they exacerbate it with cash.
Even worse, they take rights from one group and bestow them upon another.
What religion does is surface clutter the the overwhelming divisiveness institutionalized by these self-serving a--holes.
Obama also is ignoring the religious left, which is way active in sowing differences. Look no further than the "reverends" Jackson and Sharpton for proof.
Gee...I had a feeling I wouldn't have to read far into this thread before some wingnut trotted out Jackson or Sharpton and libsr, you didn't disappoint. Well, at least you neoclowns still have Ted Haggard to look up to. Oh, wait...He's in "rehab" trying to rid himself of his homo feelings. Nevermind.
WWJD? He wouldn't be a politician that's for sure!
Where do you come up with that drivel "The time is past to elevate reason above religion, as the founding fathers intended" -- if you can find any of their writings that indicate that a majority of them thought that, I would love to see your source. Given that the overwhelming majority of the drafters of the Constitution were protestant Christians, what you just said is a lie at best, and divisive evil at worst. Get a grip, Obama, like most Democrats, is trying to find a way to keep his past as a non-believer out of the spotlight so he can hoodwink Christians into voting for him. Remember when Billy Clinton carried the bible during his Impeachment trial. He doesn't carry it any more does he? Obama is a half-Moslem who wants America to trust him like he was a Christian like them. It's just left-wing politics as usual.
Seperation of church aND STATE has always been accepted as a valid goal of the founding fathers. Just because they did not write the words down does not dismiss the premise. YOu are obviously a religious individual who feels that ou religious leaders could be more effective than our current political leaders. WHile for the most part I think that is true, religious leaders tend to be intolerant of any other religious movement and do not seem to be able to get beyond this. FOr that reason, and the fact tha t religion is inherently intolerant, religious leaders would force their dogma on the populace and you know, that's not how a democracy works. Do we want to be a fundamentalist christian country with an agenda to convert the world. We already have those religious leaders howing the way in the Islamic world. And we can all see where that is leading and where it has been.
Obviously if the words "separation of church and state" were not written down, there was a reason for it. The only thing in writing is the Establishment Clause. We have no written documents indicating that separation of church and state was a goal of the founding fathers. The right to practice as an individual sees fit was a goal. Furthermore, at a basic level, 'religion' is neither tolerant nor intolerant, individuals alone can have that attribute. Tolerance is actually quite common among Christians, but tolerance is not acceptance. Too many secularists want to force Christians to accept all forms of murder and perversion not just tolerate them. As a Christian, all I want is to be able to practice my faith as openly as society allows other to practice theirs including the right to preach clearly that God is not tolerant of sin. He is forgiving, but only when the sinner repents of the sin. Secularists (including Obama) don't want to hear that, hence this stupidity from Obama.
"Obviously, if the words "separation of church and state" were not written down">>>>>
They WERE written down.
"Do not separate text from historical background. If you do, you will have perverted and subverted the Constitution, which can only end in a distorted, bastardized form of illegitimate government" James Madison
You are doing what Madison warned against. You have to know the historical background of the Constitution to understand it. That means you must study.
Jefferson, the liberals only founding father, wrote them in a letter. They gained no traction within the rest of those drafting the Constitution. Those words are a footnote in history, beloved by liberals, but not part of the reality of the Constitution. I suggest you study something other than the liberal dogma you love so much.
You're incorrect:
"We ought therefore to suspect that a great mass of information respecting the Bible, and the introduction of it into the world, has been suppressed by the united tyranny of Church and State, for the purpose of keeping people in ignorance, and which ought to be known."
- Thomas Paine
"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood for centuries."
- James Madison
There you go.
The first quote is part of a much longer discourse that touches on the need for universal theological education in America so that the ignorance brought about by the Roman church could be dispersed. The second was written in support of the Establishment Clause, not about the removal of Christians from public life which is what it has become.
Obama, like most Democrats, is trying to find a way to keep his past as a non-believer out of the spotlight so he can hoodwink Christians into voting for him.
You mean like coke-snorting DUI George W. Bush did in 2000? Or does your type of Christian only forgive those of white persuasion?
iaem
Wow you've nava saw a black Christian or something? I just love those that always want to say 'yeah but you're a racist' as a debating tool. Weak very weak way to debate. If the 'black' candidate wants to stand up and pontificate; as with every politician 'everyone' can comment.
You're argument is as silly as saying that a white politician can't be disagreed with by a minority, and if they do they are racists because they have a different color skin. Is this the direction this country is going these days?
God forgives all who repent. Obama wasn't able to make a clear statement of faith (which includes repentance for sin) during the debates -- he tried to hedge. Either you are a believer or you aren't -- obviously race has nothing to do with it, but character does. Obama has yet to make a statement of faith that correpsonds with the stated precepts of protestant Christianity. He is right in line with people like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, who claim to be ministers but have no congregation, no seminary training, and only self-ordination. And per your love of Bush, clearly God must have liked him more than Gore too. I notice he won twice. And people certainly had a choice didn't they?
Mossback writes, "God forgives all who repent. Obama wasn't able to make a clear statement of faith (which includes repentance for sin) during the debates."
Good thing we're voting for President of the United States, then, and not for Archbishop.
Quoth Mossback: "Obama is a half-Moslem who wants America to trust him like he was a Christian like them." A half-Moslem? Are you saying that religion is hereditary, and not a matter of faith? In that case, why to Christians seek converts?
Gee...my father was a Baptist and my mother was Catholic; they raised me in the Catholic church, but in college I became a Unitarian (i.e., a believer in the universal spiritual value of coffee). My ex is Jewish, and we've raised our son to ask his own questions. So...should my kiddo describe himself by his genetic religious heritage, or according to what he BELIEVES?
Sorry, but Unitarians aren't Christians. If you are a Unitarian you aren't a Christian. You are completely different. If that is what you want, fine, but don't try to claim something you aren't. Obama is a classic non-believer who tries to use his cultural religious background to persuade those who are unsure of their faith to vote for him. Sorry, but if you are a Christian, you can't be Muslim also and he tries to play both sides of that fence. Obama isn't a committed Christian and committment is everything in life.
I never said I was a Christian. My point is that since I was "born" a Catholic and no longer consider myself a Catholic, it would be as pointless to describe me as a Catholic as it is to describe Obama as a "half-Moslem"--and as I note elsewhere, Obama's father was himself a non-practicing Muslim, so Obama is no Uslim at all. Obama himself has never been a Muslim, never claimed to be a Muslim, and has belonged to the United Church of Christ since the 1980s. http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp
Obama and I have taken opposite paths--I left Christianity, and from a largely secular background, he joined the United Church of Christ (Or are you claiming that the entite UCC is non-Christian?).
Will you at least agree that calling Obama a "half-Moslem" is inaccurate? If not, what on earth do you mean by "half-Moslem"?
Obama does not appear (from the interviews I have read and the speeches I have heard) to be a Christian. Like many people raised in this country, he is a cultural Christian with the vocabulary of a Christian but without the professing or confessing believer. The term half-moslem is simply the counterpart of a "cultural Christian." Obama was born into a family where the mother was a nominal Christian and the father was a muslim. Muslim culture had an impact on Obama and it appears to play out in his inability to state what it is he believes. It doesn't matter at one level, but when Obama, an obvious non-Christian, starts making comments about the Christian Church (a fractious and undivided lot anyway) being hijacked, it is time to run the "BS" flag up the pole. How he could think that anyone could hijack 137 different deonominations is beyond belief. He simply doesn't speak from any knowledge, it is just a polticial statement against Christians.
So basically, despite Obama's own statements about his beliefs (and his membership in the United Church of Christ), you're essentially saying that he's not the "right kind" of Christian, as far as you assess whether people are sufficiently Christian. I don't suppose you bothered reading the link I provided, either.
mossback thats not for u to judge
I am not excluding them, they exclude themselves. Christians by definition believe certain things about Christ. They are in the Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed and are accepted by all Christian churches. The Unitarians no longer hold with many aspects of those creeds. They can think what they want, it really doesn't matter, but as far as any objective standards go, Unitarians are a branch of faith unto themselves. Again, that is their choice and if they find satisfaction in that, it doesn't matter. It only matters if they try to claim something that they aren't.
"Obama, like most Democrats, is trying to find a way to keep his past as a non-believer out of the spotlight so he can hoodwink Christians into voting for him."
I guess wingnuts can feel proud that their frontrunners are serial adulterers with multiple marriages among them rather than a "non-believer" like Obama, eh?
LOL....?ROTF