Join the Discussion

Comments So Far: 24

• 0%

  gregis31 year, 6 months ago

  *Sigh*...I could mount a forceful defensive position here for Catholics asking for the intercession of Mary and other saints, but it has already been done.

  http://www.scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

  http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_...

  Reply

  14 Replies

  • 0%

    bscarb1 year, 6 months ago

    How can Mary and the saints intercede for so many? How do they even hear prayers prayed by Catholics? You are making them a bit omniscient and omnipotent by implying that they can hear you much less be able to answer all those prayers prayed to them. How can they handle all that information? They are not God!

    Reply

    1 Reply

    • 0%

      bscarb1 year, 6 months ago

      The saints in Rev 5:8 do not refer to what the Catholic Church calls 'saints', those worthy of a special title. Corinthian Christians are called saints despite their less-than-saintly behavior. These prayers being offered to God are from saints on earth. The saints are not those who have died and gone to heaven already.

      Also, those in heaven are not yet glorified. That will not occur until the resurrection. They do not sin because they are no longer in the flesh (no concupiscience).

      Reply
  • 0%

    mikhurst1 year, 6 months ago

    Sorry, I read both of those commentaries. Neither is forcefully defensive. Re: "scripturecatholic.com" site - The only mention of Mary's "intercession" was regarding intercession in the natural (at the scripture account of the wedding feast). ie: "Jesus knew the wine was gone, but invites and responds to Mary's intercession."; "Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast..."; "...it was Mary's intercession that started Jesus' ministry." That's nothing more than an example of petitioning on behalf of someone else. That's like calling a waitress "an intercessor for you" if you ask her to ask the cook to "hold the mayo" on your hamburger.

    Point to be made. The Catholics don't refer to the Word of God enough to base any feasible argument on it.

    The second website contradicted the first in more than one instance. I won't even post them here. Ask me in a private post if you want them...

    Reply

    11 Replies

    • 100%

      mikhurst1 year, 6 months ago

      I guess one thing I need to stress here is, the Catholics don't promote or teach "Salvation" or "getting born-again". Once one is "born-again", everything of the flesh dies and we form a one-on-one relationship with God. We become sons and daughters. And we become "saints" ourselves. There's no reason to ask a saint to intercede for us. We have a Glorified Jesus, the Son of God to intercede on our behalf.

      There's beliefs and practices that have been taught in the Catholic church for years that have not been challenged, because the Word of God has been released to the congregation in tiny bits and pieces.

      I applaud any Catholic bold enough to explore the Bible in it's fullness. It will open one's eyes to the Truth.

      Reply

      10 Replies

      • 0%

        Jayson1 year, 6 months ago

        "There's no reason to ask a saint to intercede for us. We have a Glorified Jesus, the Son of God to intercede on our behalf."

        What you're saying here is that you wouldn't ask a Christian brother or sister to pray for you, because you don't need anyone to intercede for you. Mary is our intercessor because 1. She is in heaven. 2. She is close to the Trinity. 3. The only thing the Saints in heaven care about is the Will of the Father.

        How can they hear all our prayers? God, being omnipotent, could surely bestow some sort of limited omniscience on the Saints.

        Applaud me, then mik. I started to explore the bible as a bible believing saved Christian, and became Catholic.

        Reply

        9 Replies

        • 33%

          mikhurst1 year, 6 months ago

          Who (but you) said I wouldn't ask a brother or sister to pray for me? I do it all the time. There's power in corporate prayer. And who (but you) said I don't need anyone to intercede for me? I have Jesus, and I ask (in His Name) because, "whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you." [John 15:16] You keep passing on Jesus, and go for Mary. Are you scared to ask Jesus? Don't be. He actually pleads our case to the Father for us! "...Who is at the right hand of God actually pleading as He intercedes for us..." [Romans 8:34]

          And what exactly is "limited omniscience"? The very nature of the word "omniscience" means unlimited.

          I'd be curious also to know what version of the Bible you're reading?

          Reply

          1 Reply

          • 0%

            icelander1 year, 6 months ago

            "My imaginary friend is better!"

            "No it's not because it's a girl!"

            "Well, yours is a yucky boy and smells bad!"

            Reply
        • 100%

          bscarb1 year, 6 months ago

          Jayson - you have admitted what I have claimed. A limited omniscience and omnipotence has supposedly been granted to the "saints". That makes them demi-gods. This is idolatry. What scripture do you have that backs up such claims as saints having a limited omni-anything. What scripture backs up folks in heaven praying for those on earth.

          Reply

          6 Replies

          • 50%

            Jayson1 year, 6 months ago

            bscarb, your definition of what it takes to make someone a "demi-god" is ridiculous. Being a Christian, by definition means sharing in the power and authority of christ. Therefore, we are already given a level of omniscience when we prophesy in the spirit. Do you not think that prophesy is a gift of the spirit? If someone is prophesying, aren't they given a knowledge of the future that is above human understanding? How then, is it making someone a demi-god that when in heaven, they are able to see and know things that we, without our glorified bodies can know and see? Those in heaven are literally WITH god. Therefore, wouldn't it make sense that they are able to see and hear much more than we? I could offer you scriptural evidences, but if you really want to HONESTLY know what the Catholic position is, you should look it up. I suggest:

            http://www.catholic.com

            http://www.scripturecatholic.com/

            Reply

            5 Replies

            • 0%

              bscarb1 year, 6 months ago

              The gifts of the Spirit are real but they operate through us. I have experienced them in my own life. However, they do not include such abilities as your ascribe the saints in heaven. I want SCRIPTURE for the saints possessing these abilities in heaven and, just as important, for them to have these abilities on a permanent basis. A prophet cannot prophesy at will but only when the Holy Spirit wills to give it to them. None of the gifts are anyone's personal possession.

              Also, I have heard many testimonies about Christians who go to heaven and are then resusitated. Those in heaven never suggest that they even know what is going on in earth expect spiritually.

              Reply

              4 Replies

              • 0%

                Jayson1 year, 6 months ago

                http://bible.cc/matthew/17-3.htm

                Moses and Elijah talking with Jesus during his transfiguration are PROOF that the Saints in heaven 1. Know about what's going on right now. 2. Can minister and even APPEAR to people on earth. Apparitions are real because they are biblical. Further, to the point you touched on earlier:

                1 Cor. 13:9-12: 9 For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; 10 but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.

                kapow!

                Reply

                3 Replies

                • 0%

                  bscarb1 year, 6 months ago

                  So what. Jesus spoke with Moses and Elijah. God could swoop me up to heaven as he did Paul. What does that prove? Only that God is omnipotent. There is no indication in these verses that Moses and Elijah are aware of anything but SPIRITUAL things as I said (Jesus' coming decease etc). And there is nothing here that shows that Moses and Elijah have power in themselves to do any such thing. Moses and Elijah did not minister to the three disciples. They just appeared. Moses and Elijah were not there to intercede or minister but to represent the people of God. (The vision has to do with the second coming of Christ. Moses represents those saints who will have died before His return and Elijah represents the saints who will not have died since Elijah was taken to heaven.)

                  Reply
                • 0%

                  bscarb1 year, 6 months ago

                  As for 1 Cor 12:9-12, the knowledge there is not knowledge of all things but knowledge of the Word of God, revelation knowledge, not natural human knowledge. The "mirror" in which we see the truth dimly is the Bible. James 1:23 "IF anyone is a hearer of the word ... he is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror." The Word is called the mirror.

                  Reply
                • 100%

                  bscarb1 year, 6 months ago

                  What it comes down to is this. The burden of proof is on the Catholic to show that saints in heaven can hear all the prayers prayed to them and that they will intercede on one's behalf. That burden is far from being met.

                  Instead, we are told of miraculous powers that are supposedly given to the saints without any scriptural proof. The fact that God may use a Moses or Elijah in a special way does not constitute any proof at all. Apparitions have nothing to do with this at all. If a person would actually see Mary, the mother of Jesus, it would not be by any power that she possesses but by a special grace of God.

                  Also, God never instructs us to pray to the departed saints. He tells us (on earth) to pray for one another and tells us to pray in Jesus' name since He is our Intercessor in heaven. Just follow the instructions of the Bible and you will not go wrong.

                  Reply
• 75%

  Shankari251 year, 6 months ago

  Mary is another version of the Divine Mother. They pray to her, because they have prayed to the Divine Mother for centuries.

  Reply

  3 Replies

  • 100%

    gregis31 year, 6 months ago

    What? Is the "Divine Mother" supposed to be a Catholic Tradition? If so, I would like to know where you got that information.

    That does not sound like an authentic position of the Church. We do not consider Mary as divine. That is a fallacy.

    Reply
  • 0%

    mikhurst1 year, 6 months ago

    to Shankari25: what kind of reason is that to continue to do anything?

    People believed that the world was flat for centuries. One of the reasons for that was because the people that were there before them told them it was the truth, and that it had always been the truth. Did that make it the truth?

    Reply

    1 Reply

    • HmacComment removed: User banned.
• 0%

  icelander1 year, 6 months ago

  Show me one peer reviewed study where any prayer by any congregation made a demonstrable difference.

  Reply

  2 Replies

  • 0%

    Jayson1 year, 6 months ago

    http://whatgreatgravity.wordpress.com/2006/11/3...

    I'm sure there are others. However, I honestly think the idea of trying to scientifically study the efficacy of prayer is ridiculous. Science is the study of the natural, the material, in fact the "normal". Prayer, answered or not, would fall in the realm of "super" natural. That is, if prayers and miracles are real, they are a suspension of the very measuring stick you might be using to measure them. You certainly couldn't reproduce a miracle in a labratory. You couldn't repeat its affects. For further reading, I know that C.S. Lewis wrote a genius article describing why the efficacy of prayer could not be measured by the stick of science. If you're truly interested in what a Christian believer might think about such a thing, I would check it out.

    Reply

    1 Reply

    • 0%

      icelander1 year, 6 months ago

      Prayer is a cause that can have a natural, measurable effect. If it has an effect in the natural world, it can be studied scientifically.

      And I dispute the claim that there is anything "super" natural. Once we understand something it ceases to be supernatural and becomes natural. Lightning used to be supernatural, and now it is a natural phenomenon.

      And to deny any scientific investigation into anything is intellectually dishonest. If it involves human experience, it should be scientifically understood.

      And here's a link to a much more rigorous study that shows that prayer has no effect: http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/03/31/news/pra...

      Reply
• 0%

  DonnieJack10 months, 2 weeks ago

  I do not believe Mary has any special powers whatsoever.

  Reply
• 0%

  Idamilli8 months ago

  ONE mediator between God and man - and it ain't Mary!! If Mary were to truly possess all the power ascribed to her, wouldn't Jesus have stressed devotion to her to His followers? He said NOTHING about revering Mary...doesn't that tell you this whole Mariology thing has been fabricated? I think it's a sin to pray to anyone except God.

  Reply