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What happens when a country gives up religion? »

Posted By msaleem 1 year, 7 months ago in News

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Lessons from Spain.

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Comments So Far: 292

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david_nwpa1 year, 7 months ago

Excellent article. I agree with the information provided here about the Spanish.
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  DanmLiberals1 year, 7 months ago
  
  They forgot to mention that Spain's socialist.
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    Charlson1 year, 7 months ago
    
    So what! Big deal.
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      sophie11 year, 7 months ago
      
      It is a big deal. What socialist governments do is attempt to replace God with government. It's a form of idolatry.
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        Bkumm1 year, 7 months ago
        
        Boy, did YOU miss the point of the article.
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        sophie11 year, 7 months ago
        
        I guess I must have. Can you relate it to me as you see it?
        Thanks.
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        david_nwpa1 year, 7 months ago
        
        I would say that the point of the article is that topics which were once taboo under a more oppressive regime have become openly acceptable and worthy of discussion. Socialists are not even remotely suggesting that people cannot nor should not attend church services and be active members. To the contrary, since Spain is a predominately Catholic country, the Catholic Church is doing a fine job on its own of scaring people away, but I digress.
        Without a more totalitarian religious government, the people find themselves free to express themselves, have higher test scores, lower abortion rates per capita, and are allowed to marry the spouse of their choice regardless of gender.
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        johnb300m1 year, 7 months ago
        
        They're not true socialists. They do have a democratc, representative government.
        The do have a vast amount of socialized government programs like education, healthcare etc.
        There are many who want socialized medicine in the U.S.
        
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    ETproductions1 year, 7 months ago
    
    You mean their government actually cares about their people, and doesn't just cater to the huge businesses that pour in billions into the leaders' pockets. Oh my! How frightening.
    The US better stay REAL religious so we can keep on with our path toward Fascism.
    "The Fascist conception of the State is all-embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value. Thus understood, Fascism is totalitarian, and the Fascist State--a synthesis and a unit inclusive of all values--interprets, develops, and potentiates the whole life of a people.
    Fascism recognizes the real needs which gave rise to socialism and trade-unionism, giving them due weight in the guild or corporative system in which divergent interests are coordinated and harmonized in the unity of the State." -- Benito Mussolini.
    
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      DanmLiberals1 year, 7 months ago
      
      So I guess your willing to get rid of the constitution? This is America, no Spain.
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        ETproductions1 year, 7 months ago
        
        I have actually read our Constitution. I find NOTHING i it that says we must devote welfare to the rich and starve the poor. I find nothing in it that insists we are a state ruled by Corporatism. I see lots about checks and balances that have been missing in the last 6 years. I find a wall of separation between church and state. Congress should do NOTHING to establish a particular religion, and should also do NOTHING to interfere with the free expression of any religion.
        So NO, I'm not at all willing to get rid of our Constitution. Instead, I'd actually like to see it followed for a change.
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bscarb1 year, 7 months ago

I am sure there are many wonderful things in Spain but the lack of religion is probably not the reason for it. What distresses me is the lack of guts many Spaniards showed when they caved in to the terrorists after the train was bombed. They have reneged on a very important responsibility.
They have short memories. They were ruled over by the Muslim Moors for centuries and have given in to Muslim terrorism.
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  inthemiddleof1 year, 7 months ago
  
  Is it that Spain reneged or that spain stood up and said "terrorism isn't going to bother me." I'm not saying that the bombings weren't terrorism or bad, but could they just be making the statement that "I'm not going to let the bully bully me."
  We teach in the US to not let the bully bother you and he will go away, but are we acting that way with terrorism?
  I'm not condoning terrorism in any way here. It is sad that some ideological group (muslim, catholic, dems, reps, etc.) has to resort to killing/terror to attempt to make the other "religion" fall in line with what they believe.
  Osama wanted to pick a fight, he got his fight and he's probably sitting back in his cave somewhere laughing his head off that the world can't find him. Does that make him right, No. But spain may just be practicing what Americans preach.
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    contrast1 year, 7 months ago
    
    turn your head and it'll go away? Ill remember that if I am ever screaching towards a car accident turn my head and-what do you mean I'm in the hospital? it was SUPPOSED TO GO AWAY!
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      inthemiddleof1 year, 7 months ago
      
      ok, how you made the leap from bullies to car accidents I have no clue.
      Terrorism in any form is a way of bullying people. It's taught that if you ignore the bully long enough he goes away. That was my point. Honesty, has anything happen in Spain, big name terrorism wise, since the train bombings? Please enlighten me, I haven't heard of any.
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        contrast1 year, 7 months ago
        
        you miss the analogy. if you turn your head it doesnt go away.
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        inthemiddleof1 year, 7 months ago
        
        ok, then why don't we just try and get them help instead of trying to kill them. Under your analogy?
        My statements are saying the Spain is just not letting themselves be bothered.
        They are starving for attention and so they flew planes into buildings. We got their message. Eventually if you ignore them long enough, meaning that you acnowledge that something was done, but do not retaliate, they will get bored and go away. If the whole world did that to osama, then eventually his point would become mute and he'd have no choice but to give up the feable attempts to change the world to fit his ideology.
        Personally I say kill the sob. I don't tolerate flying planes into buildings, but Spain may be saying they do, or that they tolerate train bombings in the name of "peace man."
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        contrast1 year, 7 months ago
        
        starving for attention? this is a WAR!!!!! they declared WAR on us. attention? hardly. Jesus says not to hurt anyone and to turn the other cheek. It's SOOO hard. If we dont retaliate the enemy becomes emboldened saying we are cowards and etc. Spain may not care if people are murdered on their watch but we do.
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        inthemiddleof1 year, 7 months ago
        
        I agree.
        But would you not say that they are still trying to bully us around? And all bullies want is attention. So yes they WERE starving for attention. They have more than they could ever want now.
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        johnb300m1 year, 7 months ago
        
        HOMO?!
        
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        bscarb1 year, 7 months ago
        
        Terrorists are not 'bullying' anyone. They are murderers. They think that we are evil and want to destroy us. There is only one appropriate response to this: Kill them first along with their supporters.
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    vettenut1 year, 7 months ago
    
    WHAT????????
    I have not read such disjointed logic or misreading of history in a LONG time!!!
    Let me understand this: When the bombings in Spain were followed less than 7 days later by Spaniards voting out their leadership that had dared to stand up against terrorists and those that harbored them, in favor of leadership that advocated (and actually did) pulling Spain out of the group of nations that stand against terrorism and terrorists--this was NOT LETTING THE BULLY BULLY THEM?????
    That is PRECISELY what it was!!!
    The playground bully hit them (Spain) with a 2-by-4 and basically said, "there's more where that came from, unless you back off!" So Spain (the Spanish voters) backed off. It's that simple!!!
    You are gravely mis-construing what "we teach in the U.S."
    Should we have not reacted to the attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941?
    
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      vettenut1 year, 7 months ago
      
      The U.S. was attacked twice in the same spot by Islamo-terorists. In all, around 3,000 people were killed.
      If we're caught off-guard once, we should pursue the attackers until they are caught and killed.
      If we're caught off-guard twice or more-our response to the terrorists should be: "These were ACTS OF WAR! Anyone who does this to us (and all their cohorts) DIES! Your days are numbered. We will hunt you down relentlessly and kill ALL OF YOU! And don't you dare even think of doing this to us again!" And then we need to do it.
      We need to respond in this manner until our threats have become reality, so the terrorists will be TOO AFRAID of the U.S. to attack us again. That's the only way to deal with these maniacs with their 7th century mentalities.
      To ignore them is to encourage them. The only thing they understand is strength and resolve.
      For the sake of our survival as a nation, let's hope we have sufficient of both!
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        inthemiddleof1 year, 7 months ago
        
        As I said above. I fully agree with the hunt we are currently on. I wanted that from the beginning.
        And thank you for the history lesson. I was not aware of those happenings (in Spain) and therefore agree with the original post. They did renig and should be ashamed. The bully won.
        But I don't think I misconstrued the american bully teachings. That is what they are, and that is what we teach. However, I'll agree that we can't deal with these people logically. They've been fighting for over 1700 years, they aren't going to change at the drop of a hat.
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        inthemiddleof1 year, 7 months ago
        
        We are a vehemently reactionary society here in the US and you'd think that the world would know that by now. Don't screw with us or we'll beat you down until everyone knows not to mess with us. I thought that we proved this in WWII, but apparently the islamics didn't get the message.
        But then again are we practicing what we teach? If we are to teach tolerance, then why ARE we so vehemently reactionary? It just seems to me as a whole that the country should be either practicing what we teach or changing our teachings.
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        bscarb1 year, 7 months ago
        
        You are confusing being 'reactionary' with being evil. The terrorists are evil. Bin Laden laughed when 3000 innocent civilians were killed. We do not do this when there are innocents killed as a result of our military actions.
        We should NEVER EVER tolerate terrorists.
        Islam, born in violence, has been around for 1400 years. They did attack Christian countries and wiped out the Byzantine Empire. But they also had long periods of peace when they developed learning in math and literature.
        They are envious of us because we became much more successful then they did in the Protestant era.
        "They aren't going to change at the drop of a hat." Maybe they will at the drop of a bomb. You know, Europe not that long ago was violent and there was much infighting, etc. But now they have changed and become peaceful. It can happen to our enemies but not if we are not aggressive.
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        inthemiddleof1 year, 7 months ago
        
        Didn't Hitler feel the same way about the Jews?
        Unfortunately this is a religous war and NOONE will ever win.
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        vettenut1 year, 7 months ago
        
        "this is a religious war"--Perhaps it is from their perspective, but not from ours......
        On "their side" is radical Islam, mostly Wajabists.
        On "our side" you have a mixture of agnostics, "christians" in name only, Wiccans, atheists, Moslems, "American Indians," practicing Christians of many sects, Mormons, new-agers, and others......
        (Buddhists and Hindus do not generally volunteer for Armed Services duty, but the Islamo-terrorists hate them, too.)
        So, it is not a "religious war" from our perspective--it is simply a war against those who seek our collective destruction, and the destruction of the way of life we would call "normal."
        The only way anyone wins this war is the utter destruction of the enemy, as enumerated clearly above by froggy57.
        
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        inthemiddleof1 year, 7 months ago
        
        You guys may be right. I was only pointing out that didn't Hitler feel that the Jews were "the face of evil and must be eradicated from the planet?"
        If that's the case, what makes us any different now. I agree that it's an idealogical/religious (depending on POV) war. Are we not calling for the extermination of a race/class of people? He wanted the same thing. How are we better than him now?
        You're right that they will never see it our way, but we can never capture everyone that wants to hurt us or our beliefs. Squeezing them tighter only makes them stronger. I'm not saying we should give up, but there are some things that we just have to live with.
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        bscarb1 year, 7 months ago
        
        The Jews were not blowing themselves up to kill those they hated. Besides we have not said that all Arabs or all Muslims are evil - only those who do evil. Anyone who does evil (Muslim, so-called Christian, Jew, atheist[like Hitler and Stalin]) is evil.
        Squeeze them harder.
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        johnb300m1 year, 7 months ago
        
        You too, are a religious radical.
        Anyone who does not believe this, go read the rest of Froggy's posts throughout this thread.
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        icelander1 year, 7 months ago
        
        Calling it an act of war only legitimizes their cause as a jihad. What they did was cowardly and criminal. They need to be hunted down, arrested, and given a fair trial.
        The US is of the mindset that, since World War II went so well, every other problem we face must also be a war. "War on Poverty," "War on Drugs" and "War on Terror" are just a couple examples of this.
        Terrorism is a criminal act, and bin Laden is no more than a common criminal. Let Interpol and the FBI track these guys down and arrest them. And the places where they can't go, we should send special forces to capture them.
        But calling it a war tells other Muslims that this is the jihad the extremists have been warning them about. It's not a war. It's a police action.
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samsara151 year, 7 months ago

They have also forgotten all the people Franco killed. Prosperity flanks ideology.
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  johnb300m1 year, 7 months ago
  
  It's been my belief for years that religion has NEVER been a uniter, only a divider. The only people religion unites are the very small percentages who believe the same cooky biblical fairy tales.
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    sophie11 year, 7 months ago
    
    Jesus Himself spoke of being a divider. I think we all know what He meant.......
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      contrast1 year, 7 months ago
      
      unless it is the division between the good and the evil then no I dont know is there another thing he meant?
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        sophie11 year, 7 months ago
        
        No, you got it right...
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        johnb300m1 year, 7 months ago
        
        how about the division of all the thousands of sects of Christianity. Jews, Muslims, Taoists etc.
        The only common denominator that keeps these groups of people at odds are their religious beliefs.
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  coolicula1 year, 7 months ago
  
  I don't know how much you've read about the tragedy that was the Spanish Civil War, but there were horrific atrocities committed by both Franco's Nationalists and also by the Republican forces. The Republican side was, in fact, responsible for far more acts of violence against the Catholic Church and it's clergy, than can be laid against the Nationalists, when they committed what has been attributed to acts of vengeance against the anarchists, communists and socialists, that comprised the leftist forces. General Mola, Franco's second-in-command throughout much of the war, said that the Nationalists would eventually win, because they had a fifth-column of supporters amongst the Spanish population, that would guarantee them that victory. I think that modern Spain has another fifth-column active today, as does much of the world because of the continuous religious conflict, that has become cynical about all things religious and all of this has nothing to do with Franco.
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preacher651 year, 7 months ago

What happens to a country that gives up religion? Look at America right now! Freedoms are taken away piece by piece, no morals, bad is good and good is bad, proverts run the show and good people are told to shut up. Earth Quakes, Storms, Floods, Fires, Sickness and the list goes on and on each day brings more sorrow. The government is god but can't help soon enough because they don't care and from what I have seen a lot of people DON'T CARE.
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  johnb300m1 year, 7 months ago
  
  Right, because I don't believe in a divine creator, there are fires and tornados.
  If you know anything about nature, you'd know that fires, earthquakes and tornados were occuring LONG before humans dreamed up the idea of God.
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      FatherWeebles1 year, 7 months ago
      
      umm no? It's called science, I suggest you check it out before you become too brainwashed...oh wait...
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        FatherWeebles1 year, 7 months ago
        
        science!=fundamentalism because science is founded on facts :rollseyes:
        try again
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        Chicyuna1 year, 7 months ago
        
        "Science is founded on theories."
        And religion is not? Religion is based on facts? Oh man, get an education before you hurt yourself..
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        Chicyuna1 year, 7 months ago
        
        LOL! Learn to be openminded and not so ignorant. Gramps...
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        johnb300m1 year, 7 months ago
        
        A scientific theory is not the same as the common term "theory."
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory
        I suggest you check out the definitions of "theory" since there are many.
        In science, a theory is a mathematical description, a logical explanation, a verified hypothesis, or a proven model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation.
        I would've expected you knew that since your icon is of a man in a lab coat...but we all know what happens when we assume.
        
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        Chicyuna1 year, 7 months ago
        
        LMAO! Suck on eggs? I think my 12 year old cousin uses that expression.. doesn't say much about you, now does it?
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        Chicyuna1 year, 7 months ago
        
        LOL! Yeah, and about 2 years older than you..
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        johnb300m1 year, 7 months ago
        
        Oh good job you called him "young."
        "You stupid young person! Why are you so....young!?"
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    Chicyuna1 year, 7 months ago
    
    So, you're saying that before the idea of God, there were no such things as earthquakes, fires, storms, things of the like? Come on now.. science can tell us that those things happened during the dinosaurs.. the plates of the earth moved and thus created the different continents during that time.. we all know that when the earth's plates move, they create earthquakes.. I highly doubt that dinosaurs had the mental capacity to think up a God..
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      Chicyuna1 year, 7 months ago
      
      LOL! Can you read AND think at the same time? Yes, I believe a creator made the earth and everything on it.. I was simply stating that before the IDEA of God was created, there were natural disasters such as earthquakes, storms, etc.... science shows us that through the plate movements during that time.. because the plates moved during the dinosaurs' era, I highly doubt they were intellegent enough to come up with the IDEA of God! No sh** nothing came before God, I believe that. I'm saying that the IDEA of God came when humans were formed.. Sheesh.. get your head out of your arse for a little bit..
      
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        Chicyuna1 year, 7 months ago
        
        LMAO! Oh man, you're too funny! Is that the best you can come up with? I'm an idiot? LMAO! Go read your Bible. Humans don't have an idea of God? So, explain to me why there's so many religions out there.. oh wait, please don't. I don't think my mind can take your ignorance.. Please get an education, for all of humanities sake..
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        Chicyuna1 year, 7 months ago
        
        No, I'm sorry, it's you with the mental block.. not me hun. Plus, I'm not embarrassed, not one bit. If anything, you should be with your closedmindedness and ignorance. Ignorance is not always bliss, you know.
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        Chicyuna1 year, 7 months ago
        
        LMAO!! Buffing my nails and popping chewing gum??? OMG, you are too priceless, seriously.. is that the best you can come up with? I admit, I do like getting my nails done once and awhile, and I like what I see in the mirror.. too bad I can't say that same for you though.. must be tough getting up in the morning knowing you're so wrong on things, and yet don't have enough balls to admit it. I pity you, actually..*chew, chew, POP!*
        "***I bow to your intimate, and obviously superior knowledge of that subject. lol"
        Sigh.. I was waiting for so long for you to admit that.. thank you! Would you like me to teach you how not to be so ignorant? Nah, you seem pretty stubborn at saying silly things (and doing a good job of it too!)
        
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        Chicyuna1 year, 7 months ago
        
        Cont'd
        You're right. If you opened up the dictionary to ignorant, not only would I be there, but so would everyone else on God's green earth, including you. Being ignorant only means that you don't have knowledge about certain subjects. Obviously, you and I don't know everything about anything, and neither does anyone else. However, if you looked up "educated" or the phrase "willing to learn", you would find me, and most others in there. Too bad you won't be though.
        I find it amazing how religious people are so willing to share their beliefs with you, but yet the moment you try to share yours with them, they don't want to hear it.. THAT is ignorance at it's best!
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        johnb300m1 year, 7 months ago
        
        It's posts like this that are not going to bring more people into your "God loving" flock.
        Poor recruitment skills.
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      johnb300m1 year, 7 months ago
      
      Where is your proof, your evidence that a creator started the universe?
      If he exists, why is he ******footing around, keeping himself secret? Because so far there is no evidence that anything was dabbled with by a devine being.
      All you're going by is your blind, feel-good faith.
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        sophie11 year, 7 months ago
        
        Excellent post. I was in these peoples' shoes for forty years. It truly is a type of blindness...
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        Chicyuna1 year, 7 months ago
        
        LOL. You know what I really don't like? People acting like they are holier than everyone on God's green earth..
        "It truly is a type of blindness..." You just confirmed it..
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        johnb300m1 year, 7 months ago
        
        You my friend are the mentally impaired one. All your idiotic posts here prove that to everyone. It's quite sad how you're broadcasting your ignorance, potentially poisoning impressionable minds.
        But that's probably your goal, to make more sick people like you. You're a virus.
        And I don't say that to "make fun" of you, but all of your posts that I read...I cannot come to any other conclusion that you're just someone out to make trouble and ****** anyone off who doesn't have your same screwed up fundamental creationist views.
        You're broken, and unfortunately, cannot be reasoned with nor fixed.
        Do you know what we do with broken machinery at work?
        We throw it away.
        
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        Chicyuna1 year, 7 months ago
        
        Like I said before, isn't it amazing how religious people are so willing to share their beliefs with you, but the minute you try to share yours, they turn their head and don't want to hear? True ignorance, baby!
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        Chicyuna1 year, 7 months ago
        
        LOL! AWWWW.. did I hit a sore spot for you? Too bad, frogboy! If we were to go on mental hierarchy on this board, you'd be so below the requirement line Netscape wouldn't allow you to post..
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        sophie21 year, 7 months ago
        
        Chicyuna-
        Please forgive my new friend froggy. He's a pretty passionate guy.
        I'm referring to my own blindness. I honestly did not see. I was a total materialist. A Richard Dawkins devotee. I became a biologist because I thought science could give me the key to the universe. I was utterly without imagination. For forty years I wandered in a desert of my own making, and all the while I could feel my heart turning to stone. Long story short, in the summer of 2000 at the age of forty-nine I had a conversion experience that literally opened my eyes. I did not ask for it. In fact, I tried to resist it. I thought I was losing my mind. Finally, I stopped fighting it. You know how you said in another post that you just "know"? I just know I've been given a great gift and far from feeling holy, I feel tremendously unworthy of it.
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        Chicyuna1 year, 7 months ago
        
        Well, I'm glad you found that something that was missing in your life. Finally, a person who has a civil thought that I can comment on.
        "I just know I've been given a great gift and far from feeling holy, I feel tremendously unworthy of it."
        If this is the case, then I do apologize for insinuating that you act holier than thou. It's clear from your statement that you truly do feel humble for what found you. I am sorry for directing my statement towards you. That being said, I stand by the idea of my statement in that it drives me nuts when someone believes they're better than others either because of their religion, or they think they're smarter than everyone in science, or better at everyone in life. I personally love ALL cultures and religions. That's why I majored in what I did (Anthropology and English, with a minor in Religious Studies). I love learning about all walks of life. Perhaps that's why I become so irate at someone's ignorance. Cont'd...
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        Chicyuna1 year, 7 months ago
        
        It's one thing to be ignorant, but another thing to choose to be. That's what bothers me. Closedminded people drive me nuts in that they don't seem willing to learn something new or different. And yet they try to argue their point without looking at the entire picture. Just as Froggy is passionate about his beliefs, so am I. If he had not started attacking me as a person, or tried to be at least open to new ideas and possibilities, this argument would never have occurred. Alas though, I suppose there's always going to be some sort of argument when it comes to beliefs. No one wants to admit defeat. Personally, I think everyone is correct with their beliefs. It's those who choose not to open up to new ideas that bother me. You seem like a truly understanding person. I thank you for that..
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        Chicyuna1 year, 7 months ago
        
        "Earths crammed with Heaven, and every common bush afire with God. But only those who see, take off their shoes."
        OMG! Quit hiding behind a book! Be a man, and think for yourself!
        
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    johnb300m1 year, 7 months ago
    
    Uhh, landscape erosion, the existence of mountains and the knowledge of how those were formed, and the fact that evidence of those activities on other planets "before" our existence is some pretty good evidence.
    By the way, your "remain silent" anecdote applies to you as well, I assume?
    
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      Chicyuna1 year, 7 months ago
      
      You think this is all theory?? OMG, man, you get more and more ignorant by the second.. I can't believe that someone like you actually exists.. it's scary, really..
      
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        Chicyuna1 year, 7 months ago
        
        My meds? Pray tell me what meds I'm on as I was not aware I was on any... perhaps you should take your sterile meds as it would be scary knowing you have the capacity to reproduce..
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      johnb300m1 year, 7 months ago
      
      Radiohalos?
      So you're a young earth creationist huh?
      http://personal.bgsu.edu/~roberth/gentry.html
      You automatically have no scientific authority here.
      I don't either, but I can still point you out as a fraud.
      Reply
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  Candida1 year, 7 months ago
  
  preacher65: "What happens to a country that gives up religion? Look at America right now!"
  This may be news to you but, with the possible exception of some Islamic countries, the US is the most religious country on Earth.
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  icelander1 year, 7 months ago
  
  What's a provert?
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      espse1 year, 7 months ago
      
      No, its a professional pervert, like Haggart. Can you believe in this day and age, there are such stunningly stupid people like preacher who actually equate earthquakes with some invisible God????? The level of ignorance is stunning, the level of arrogance is beyond comprehension. Anyone still wondering why we are losing jobs to chinese, need look no further than this trailertrash level moron who apparently LEADS a congregation of even stupider folk, all who vote republican.
      Reply
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        Tenric1 year, 7 months ago
        
        So are all Republicans bible thumping morons? Oh wait, this is Netscape so of course everyone is going to say yes to that question.
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        johnb300m1 year, 7 months ago
        
        NO actually. Not all Republicans are Neocon bible-thumpers.
        The TRUE Republicans do not follow this flawed thinking.
        Reply
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        Pippi1 year, 7 months ago
        
        Indeed YOUR level of ignorance and arrogance toward an almighty creator is stunning. God may be invisible but if people took the time to truly research the possibility of eternity with your creator, a loving God, you would receive many sensory indications of what you profess you do not believe. The Holy Spirit will want to reduce you to tears, and you will likely block it with your hard heart, but do not deny that it is Jesus knocking on the door of your heart. Sadly, you will likely continue to reject this spirit trying to love you, and someday the knocking will stop. At the end of this lifetime, every knee WILL bow and every tongue WILL confess the existence of our God. Will it be too late for you? That is what we don't know.
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        johnb300m1 year, 7 months ago
        
        Loving God?
        Are you serious?
        Is this the same God that murdered millions of people because they may have "miffed" him a little?
        Did he really have to wipe out the earth with a flood?
        Did he really have to destroy two whole towns?
        Did he really have to threaten to murder a man's son just to test the man's devotion?
        To me, these are traits of a sadistic, warlord, evil diety. A God with these traits, if there is a God, is NOT WORTHY of my worship.
        If things were that bad back in the day, why has God not flooded the Earth again and start fresh? Because he said he never would? Things are pretty bad now and we could use another flood.
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        sophie11 year, 7 months ago
        
        I had to think about this one for a couple of days before I could respond... And what I'm about to say may not make any sense to you, because you and I see through different lenses, but here goes:
        God has given each of us an inborn sense of justice. You see it in action in little children all the time. I rmemeber when I was little my relentless vigilance in inspecting every shared cookie, every poured glass of chocolate milk to make sure my sister wasn't getting more than I was. Other kids may learn this important lesson earlier than I did. It took until I was grown and in charge of my own kids that fair isn't always equal.
        The God of the Bible is God of all justice. As He is God of all mercy. In fact, when people question why an innocent Man was crucified to atone for the sins of all mankind, one very good answer is that there is no other conceivable way to bring perfect justice and perfect mercy together. But even then we are seeing this mystery through imperfect
        Reply
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        sophie11 year, 7 months ago
        
        ....human eyes. We also must accept the divinity of Jesus in order to understand this paradox.
        While I understand that we all see only with human eyes, I think sometimes we can step outside ourselves and try to see things from another perspective. Maybe this one is helpful: we need to recognize God first as Creator of all things, including justice and mercy. Once we put that concept first, then other things fall into place. Does God have the "right" (always a funny question) to destroy the world in a flood? Of course He does. Does He have the "right" to destroy whole towns? Of course. He created them. They belong to Him. Does He have the "right" to strike me dead even as I write this on His behalf? Of course. But because He is the God of all justice as well as the God of all mercy, He offers us His most precious thing: His own Son to take upon Himself all the punishment we all deserve.
        You seem young. This is not an accusation, merely
        Reply
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        sophie11 year, 7 months ago
        
        an observation. I hope time is kind to you.
        Reply
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        Watchemoket1 year, 7 months ago
        
        What is a "veriest" child? And I think the point was that a preacher, although human and therefor imperfect, is supposed to have given his/her life to God and is supposed to be living his/her life "as Jesus would". They are supposed to have had a 'calling' and - especially when they are 'born-again' evangelicals - are supposed to have a personal relationship with the Lord.
        Either Haggart was lying about his 'conversion' or he was visited by something other than God. Or he just had a psychological break with reality when he was 're-born' and was always homosexual, devious (not deviant) and dishonest.
        Just because the same can be said of non-preachers, does not diminish the faults of those who hold themselves out as moral authorities while conducting themselves in secret in the same way as those they condemn. Can YOU say hypocrite?
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        Watchemoket1 year, 7 months ago
        
        Wow, where do I start?
        I emphasized the spelling of 'devious' because I didn't want anyone to misunderstand the point I was trying to make - that Haggart may have been devious, as in lying, deceitful, etc., rather than deviant (which is a term many use to denigrate homosexuals - including you, apparently).
        Regarding my 'pontification', I stand by my statement that those who hold themselves out as moral authorities and examples DO have a greater responsibility not to disobey their own rules in secret thanthe average person who does NOT hold him/herself out as morally superior.
        Finally, where do you find any 'plagiarism' in my posting? I was turning your own question against you. Care to answer the question, rather than making pointless, nonsense criticisms of my posting?
        Reply
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        Chicyuna1 year, 7 months ago
        
        Tsk, tsk.. such anger for such a religious person..
        "Stunningly stupid gays"? Oh, now you're touching murky waters. What the hell kind of comment is that? You don't agree with someone, and now they're gay? Wow.. such anger.. and ignorance..
        Reply
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        Chicyuna1 year, 7 months ago
        
        " I thought stunningly stupid people came in all persuasions. yourself for example. "
        Oh, tsk! Don't be so modest! That includes you as well...
        "***Do you get all your exercise by jumping to conclusions? lol."
        No, actually, I do workout twice a day, once in the morning and then after work..
        " I will leave you to your puerile ramblings, you pusilanamous twit. Yeah, run look it up and pretend you already knew what it meant. lol."
        Yeah, actually, I had to look that up 'cause the word is actually spelled "pusillanimous". If you are trying to insult an English major, please get the spelling correct.
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