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  blazemark

  Dec. 24, 2006, 9:36 p.m.

  A moral upstanding ethical athiest.Good joke.I mean why?The problem with athiests is that they exude a deadness.A dryness of the bones.

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    jeffery1

    Dec. 25, 2006, 2:14 p.m.

    Howdt, I'm an atheist or actually an ardent agnostic because I really don't know whether god exists or not. In truth, all religious people are agnostics because they don't know either, they merely believe deeply. I am very moral and have a very firm foundation for it. I would love to know just what you mean by "exude a deadness. a dryness of the bones." Care to clarify this?
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  2sidestoeverything

  Dec. 24, 2006, 10:36 p.m.

  Interesting article it was enlightening. I don't know why people think you can't be a good moral person if you don't believe in God. Many wars are started in the name of God and I haven't heard of any wars starting in the name of science.

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    teebig

    Dec. 25, 2006, 10:23 a.m.

    2sidestoeverything, I will tell you why there is a conflict between atheism and morality, and it is quite simple: God is the God of morals, not men. Men cannot determine what is right or what is wrong w/o divine instruction. Haven't you heard the old cliche', the path to hell is paved w/good intentions? Determining right or wrong cannot be left up to human-beings because morals are then degraded and reduced to nothing more than a point of view, per individual, and I am certain you can foresee the danger in this. Take Hitler, do you think that he thought what he did was wrong? With children, they don't know right from wrong, but the enlightenment is passed down from their parents, from their parents. We, the human race are like children to God. We have to be taught. And lastly, whatever men know to be morally righteous is spiritually given to them from God. And even then one must consult w/God for reassurrance. Read the bible. Get to know God; God is the God of righteousness.

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      Beau7890

      Dec. 25, 2006, 11:09 a.m.

      Rational people can decide right and wrong for themselves, teebig. We have been able to come up with a pretty good system of government, which relies heavily on rules created by men. (I know, some will say it's based on biblical tenets, but the fact remains that our government was created by men, not God.)

      Jesus was a man. The Bible, in fact, was written by men, not God, though some will argue that God was speaking through them. Many psychotics argue the same thing.

      Your comment states that the ultimate moral authority is God--but how do we know God, other than through faith, as opposed to reason? And how to account for the conflicting interpretations of God's teachings? (If you say that some interpret God's word incorrectly, then what's the difference in consequence of following God's morals, which can be wrongly interpreted, and following a code of ethics developed by mortals, which could be based on incorrect assumptions? At least with man's rules, we get to think for ourselves.)

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        teebig

        Dec. 25, 2006, 12:28 p.m.

        Jesus is no ordinary man, He is God incarnated. What right or authority do I have to say this? Because Jesus's birth was foretold in the Old Testament, thousands of years prior to His birth: born of a virgin, in Bethlehem, and His name being interpreted as, Jehovah with us. And all His life He fulfilled every tittle of the prophecy of: The Messiah. The salvation of all humanity utterly depends on this truth. Ever since Adam and Eve sinned in the garden we have been awaiting His coming. All of humanity longed for His coming during B.C. times. Even Satan knew of the prophecy and was patiently waiting for the day, to devour Him.

        Also, some "rational" people think they don't need God, but when push comes to shove, whose name do they call? And why?

        I would say I am a rational person, and I need God, everyday! Some psychotic people are believers, and some are atheists too! I profess that scriptures were inspired by God, and I assure you, I am not psychotic.

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          Albert1

          Dec. 25, 2006, 12:35 p.m.

          As Christians, you dont have to worry about or deal with problems. Poverty-stricken? Illiterate? Ill health? Abusive relationship? Secular thought would seek education, job training, a healthier lifestyle and divorce to overcome these problems. True Christians® know better. They shouldn't be ashamed of their plight at all. They should be proud to be disenfranchised. After all, the meek, the poor, the hungry and the persecuted are blessed (Matthew 5:3-6). They will be rewarded in Heaven for their suffering on Earth. Become a Christian and you will no longer feel compelled to cope or deal with your mortal problems.

          Let your unsaved friends know they needn't be good people to become Christians. Faith teaches that we all come up short-we all sin. By accepting Jesus all our sins are forgiven - both our sins of the past and the ones we will inevitably commit in the future! Even those committing the most evil acts will still go to Heaven so long as they are saved.

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            teebig

            Dec. 25, 2006, 12:41 p.m.

            Amen Albert! Well spoken.

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              Linkgmr

              Dec. 25, 2006, 1:09 p.m.

              But if, as you say, the meek, the poor, the hungry, and the persecuted are blessed, and you are persecuting athiests, does that not mean that athiests are blessed? On morals, your ultimate moral authority is your God. I am my own moral authority.

              To quote the article 'We are all athiests, I just believe in one less god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours'

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                teebig

                Dec. 25, 2006, 4:29 p.m.

                This is why there are thousands of misinterpretations of the bible. If you know God, and filled with the Spirit of God, then you can accurately interpret the Word of God. Persecution in itself won't win you favor with God, but persecution for His sake will. Jesus even says that if someone gives a cup of water to the thirsty for the cause of God, that person will not go unrewarded. But being persecuted in itself honors no reward.
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            CriticalTheorist

            Dec. 25, 2006, 1:16 p.m.

            As Christians, you dont have to worry about or deal with problems. Poverty-stricken? Illiterate? Ill health? Abusive relationship? Secular thought would seek education, job training, a healthier lifestyle and divorce to overcome these problems. True Christians® know better.

            This is a laughable comment, either you are joking or you are truely out of touch with reality.

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              Beau7890

              Dec. 25, 2006, 2:25 p.m.

              I think the registered trademark gives him away, CriticalTheorist...

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                teebig

                Dec. 25, 2006, 4:31 p.m.

                Beau7890, I noticed that you are, let's say, a peacemaker. I respect that.

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                  Beau7890

                  Dec. 25, 2006, 5 p.m.

                  Thanks. I try (not always successfully) to remain objective, and to talk about the arguments, rather than resort to generalization and insult.

                  And I've enjoyed our discussion here.
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            dance4others

            Dec. 25, 2006, 5:33 p.m.

            so if someone went and killed thousands of innocent souls for no apparent reason they'll still got to heaven just because they believe in Jesus? hmmm, i think we need a lil rewording in there...
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      Albert1

      Dec. 25, 2006, 12:26 p.m.

      Your saying people dont learn by their mistakes but only from Gods intervention. Keep in mind God didn't write the bible MAN did.

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        teebig

        Dec. 25, 2006, 12:39 p.m.

        Also keep in mind that, God is the divine inspiration which used faithful and God fearing men to write the Holy Scriptures. You must keep in mind that human beings are devices created by God. We were designed to learn, either by our mistakes, or by the mistakes of others, or by the Word of God, but the point is, we must learn! God is the Teacher. And furthermore, no matter how much we as people learn, we will never know all of what God knows. But even so, there is one thing we must learn and never forget, God knows everything! He is our Creator, our Father, He loves us more than our mothers or fathers on earth, He is all-knowing, so why don't we trust Him? We are not equal with Him, so why do we disobey Him when obviously Father knows best?

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          bcellboy

          Dec. 25, 2006, 12:45 p.m.

          Yet why do you reject Islam as being wrong when Muhammad claimed that Allah spoke to him? As citing the article, when you understand why you reject other religions, you'll understand why I reject yours.

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            teebig

            Dec. 25, 2006, 4:36 p.m.

            Have you ever heard of a witness? In the Old and New Testaments, a man's testimony is invalid unless someone else can corroborate the first man's story. Muhammad is only one man, with no witness. Unless he is God Himself, he needs one. The Koran, was it written by only Muhammad? The bible was written by dozens of authors, over a span of two thousand years, but they all speak as if written by one man. Because they were all inspired by the same source, God Himself!

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              bcellboy

              Dec. 25, 2006, 10:21 p.m.

              How bout Moses receiving the 10 commandments?
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      JohnBryansFontaine

      Dec. 25, 2006, 2:18 p.m.

      As he was neither Liberal, Progressive, Socialistic, Communistic, Jewish, nor Gay, Hitler was also NOT an atheist. There are any number of references to both God and Christ in Mein Kampf, Hitler stated that he considered himself to be a Catholic and the Nazis celebrated Christmas.
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      jeffery1

      Dec. 25, 2006, 2:22 p.m.

      Hitler believed in god. The reason Jews were scapegoated was due to the inherent anti-Semitism found in Christianity. There were innumerable pogroms against Jews by Christians throughout European history.

      I am an atheist/agnostic and am very moral and do not see the bible as the basis for morality except for people who are inherently good. The righteous can kill the unrighteous, slavery is fine so long as the bible's rules are followed. When poor quality people read the bible they can find all sorts of texts supporting their views and actions, like the Ku Klux Klan and Christians burning heretics at the stake.

      The problem with religious people is that by definition believing in god and following a belief system is good, unless it isn't your god or belief system, that is.

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        PaganGodess

        Dec. 25, 2006, 2:45 p.m.

        Did not Hilter also make reference to Jews being "Christ Killers?" These do not sound like the words of an athiest to me.

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          teebig

          Dec. 25, 2006, 5:28 p.m.

          Neither does He sound like a Christian. I don't want him!
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    PaganGodess

    Dec. 25, 2006, 12:49 p.m.

    {{Many wars are started in the name of God and I haven't heard of any wars starting in the name of science.}}

    Well said! = ]

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      defender35

      Dec. 25, 2006, 1:30 p.m.

      PaganGoddess,

      Check out the other half of the title to Darwin's "Origin of Species". You'll then discover why Hitler (and others who adopted that fatal scientific theory) tried to take over the world.

      Then you'll see that science has indeed caused wars.

      On the contrary, religion does start wars. But Christianity isn't religion; it is relationship, that is knowing God. God isn't pleased when men try to worship apart from the the truth he has revealed (the Bible) or suppress other's in religious dogma. Love for God cannot be demanded; it must be offered. This is the nature of true love.

      Religion is man's effort to get to God; Christianity is God's way of reaching down into his fallen, war-filled creation.

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        PaganGodess

        Dec. 25, 2006, 1:53 p.m.

        That was a very nice way of putting things. Thank you. = ]

        I liked 2sides comment and he/she mentioned wars being started in the name of God and not specifically Chirstianity.
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        JohnBryansFontaine

        Dec. 25, 2006, 2:22 p.m.

        As he was neither Liberal, Progressive, Socialistic, Communistic, Jewish, nor Gay, Hitler was also NOT an atheist. There are any number of references to both God and Christ in Mein Kampf, Hitler stated that he considered himself to be a Catholic and the Nazis celebrated Christmas.

        Wars have existed long before Science was anything. Also, Hitler's motivation was 'Ayran supremacy' and anti-semitism, not Darwin.
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        ybdogsct

        Dec. 25, 2006, 2:36 p.m.

        "You'll then discover why Hitler (and others who adopted that fatal scientific theory) tried to take over the world. Then you'll see that science has indeed caused wars."

        On the contrary, Charles Darwin always resisted the bastardization of the scientific theory of Evolution into the pseudo-social science of Social Darwinism.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Darwin#Social

        What you have in the Nazis are politicians (NOT scientists), who manipulate and distort scientific theories to promote their nationalistic propaganda. Therefore, Darwin did not start WW2, nor can he be blamed for Nazi ideology.

        On the other hand, Hitler was born and raised a Christian. He viewed Jesus as an instrument in the destruction of the Jews. Nazis celebrated Christmas, and references to Christianity permeate Hitler's writings.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler#Hitler.27s_rel

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          JohnBryansFontaine

          Dec. 25, 2006, 2:59 p.m.

          My thanks to Ybdogsct, the Truth regarding Hitler's Theism:

          Adolf Hitler was brought up in his family's religion by his Roman Catholic parents, but as a school boy he began to reject the Church and Catholicism. After he had left home, he never attended Mass or received the Sacraments.

          In later life, Hitler's religious beliefs present a discrepant picture: In public statements, he frequently spoke positively about the Christian heritage of German culture and belief in Christ. Hitler's private statements, reported by his intimates, are more mixed, showing Hitler as a religious but also anti-Christian man. However, in contrast to other Nazi leaders, Hitler did not adhere to esoteric ideas, occultism, or neo-paganism, and ridiculed such beliefs in his book Mein Kampf. Rather, Hitler advocated a "Positive Christianity", a belief system purged from what he objected to in traditional Christianity, and reinvented Jesus as a fighter against the Jews.
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  earthlingerer

  Dec. 25, 2006, 9:56 a.m.

  You definitely don't have to believe in ANY god to find the evolutionary and common human values in the ten commandments.

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    teebig

    Dec. 25, 2006, 10:30 a.m.

    Hmm. Whether you believe in God or not, the Ten Commandments was given from God. How could you believe in the value of the Ten Commandments and not believe in God? God is the Ten Commandments, and more! God is His Word, like, a man who is a man of His word. How can you take the good that someone gives you and not give them credit for it?

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      Beau7890

      Dec. 25, 2006, 11:11 a.m.

      The Ten Commandments were given by God according to the Bible, which was a book written by men.

      The Golden Rule, from which the Ten Commandments can be derived, existed prior to the Dead Sea Scrolls, the earliest sources of the Bible. Who is to say that man didn't develop them by himself?

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        teebig

        Dec. 25, 2006, 11:18 a.m.

        Again, I can ask you, who is to say this "Golden Rule" existed prior to the Dead Sea Scrolls? And who is to say that the Dead Sea Scrolls are just a copy of what was hewned out of Mount Sinai? If you thoroughly read the scriptures, the Ten Commandments were first written by the finger of God, on stone, hewn from Mount Sinai. The Dead Sea scrolls is only a copy of that. If you question the bible, why not question everything, including the Golden Rule?

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          Beau7890

          Dec. 25, 2006, 11:32 a.m.

          I agree. Why not question everything? Only by doing that can people learn. (And, one can only believe that the Ten Commandments were written by the finger of God if one already believes the Bible.)

          I'm not in favor of each individual determining his own code of ethics, but I do have faith in mankind being able to come up with just and true moral tenets without having to rely solely on faith.

          From the Udana-Varga 5:18: "Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." Though this Indian Buddhist text dates from the 4th century B.C., (as opposed to 1st and 2nd c. B.C. for the Dead Sea Scrolls), it is likely to have been followed for centuries prior, before written, just as the Ten Commandments were likely to have been followed before they were written by man.

          I believe that the fact that so many of the world's religions, many older than Christianity, include a version of this Golden Rule is a testament to man's ability to arrive at its own just ethical values.

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            Beau7890

            Dec. 25, 2006, 11:38 a.m.

            Is it so hard to believe that humans learning to exist with each other and forming societies during the early years of civilization would be able to come up with such a reasonable and benevolent rule as "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"?

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              teebig

              Dec. 25, 2006, 1:14 p.m.

              Let me ask you this: if there is a God (and there is :-) ), wouldn't it be prudent to listen to Him, obey Him, and trust Him? Sure men have some God-given abilities and talents, but wouldn't men go much further w/God than w/o Him? Men have limits, God is almighty; men die, God is eternal; men are condemned to die an eternal death, God is the Savior of man. However, God has given men not only talent, but a choice, to obey Him or not. Learn of God and see what it is like to be eternally blessed. Don't let anyone deter you, even other Christians ironically. Not everyone is what they say they are. You must see and experience it yourself.

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                CriticalTheorist

                Dec. 25, 2006, 2:44 p.m.

                Teebig, all you have done so far is make unsupported assertions. You try to pass off your thoroughtly subjective position as an objective truth, while conviently ignoring the fact that what you claim as truth for your religion can be claimed as truth by a thousand others. Your arguments are ALL circular arguments and are therefore totally unreasonable

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                  teebig

                  Dec. 25, 2006, 4:38 p.m.

                  And what have you proven with you accusatory rhetoric? Ask me a question so we can make some progress the truth.
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              siRNA

              Dec. 26, 2006, 10 a.m.

              And why not--surely they were not so blind as to not be able to recognize the advantage of working together to solve problems. For example 5 or 10 people could more efficiently hunt for food if they worked together as a team, rather than work against each other, then once such cooperative ties were established, the development of operational rules for treating each other cannot have been far behind. It doesn't seem so far-fetched to me.
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            teebig

            Dec. 25, 2006, 1:04 p.m.

            Christianity is older than time itself; Christ Himself is older than time itself. Adam was a Christian. Judaism is a form of Christianity, even though not every Jew is a "Jew for Jesus", every Jew does know of The Messiah. Some choose not to believe He is Jesus. There is no religion older than Christianity. All other false religions and false gods are mere counterfeits of holiness. And no one ever said man cannot come up with His own religion. The world is polluted with them. Any good thing, or seemingly good thing that comes from these religions, were copied from Judaism or Christianity. Anything else written that contradicts the Christian bible, will not stand under any scrutiny.

            Any code of ethics we dare to come up with will undoubtedly and always be incomplete. Like scientists always coming up with new discoveries, so will these man-made religions, adding new amendments, filled w/contradictions, aiming for, but never achieving, what God has already instituted.

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              Beau7890

              Dec. 25, 2006, 2:38 p.m.

              There is no Jew who is a "Jew for Jesus." Jews for Jesus inherently negates Judaism, a central tenet of which is that the Messiah has not yet come. Though I do support Jesus' teachings--as a good friend of mine always says, Jesus was a bad-a$$ egalitarian." And I can get behind that. And to call all other religions "false" and "mere conterfeits of holiness," amd that "the world is polluted with them," seems a bit judgmental--again, where did Christianity spring from? As I'm sure you know, Jesus was Jewish, and the Christian religion was started by his followers, not him.

              I don't understand your statement that there is no religion older than Christianity. Historically, there are several. And many would argue that Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism--after all, where did the Ten Commandments originally appear?

              And please explain how Adam was a Christian.

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                Beau7890

                Dec. 25, 2006, 2:37 p.m.

                (continued)

                In addition, no one here argued that because man has invented his own religion, that this contradicts your argument. My original point is that man can come up with a reasonable, intelligent, and beneficial code of ethics, without God.
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                teebig

                Dec. 25, 2006, 4:51 p.m.

                Make no mistake, Christianity was started by Jesus. Judaism is not defined by a tenet stating the Messiah hasn't come. Sorry, that's not true. The Messiah is Christ Jesus. Before there was Judaism, there was Christ. Before there was a Jew, there was Christ. Don't you understand, we believe Jesus Christ is God, and God is eternal. Our faith is wrapped up into Jesus Christ Himself, who is eternal. There's a lot to know. First off, Jesus Christ was more than a man, He was also the Arch-angel, Michael. In Genesis, God referred to Himself as, we. We being the Father (Jehovah), the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit. I can see how confusing all of this seems, but technically, Adam was a Christian; He had dealings with Christ. It's not about the people of the religion as it is the object of our faith, being the eternal Jesus Christ. And there is a whole lot more but it may be too much for your understanding right now. It's a long way from atheism to Christanity.
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  thestarryhunter

  Dec. 25, 2006, 10:22 a.m.

  (John 1:1). when its all said and done,HE will have the final word.
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  thestarryhunter

  Dec. 25, 2006, 10:27 a.m.

  a BIG AMEN!!! teebig!

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    teebig

    Dec. 25, 2006, 10:31 a.m.

    thestarryhunter, I am glad there's someone out there who believes! God bless you brother!

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      thestarryhunter

      Dec. 25, 2006, 11:11 a.m.

      gotta go now, my brother in Christ. all we can do is love em, witness and pray for them and pray for each other. AMEN!

      (PSALM 86)

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        teebig

        Dec. 25, 2006, 11:12 a.m.

        Amen! God bless you!
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  thestarryhunter

  Dec. 25, 2006, 10:44 a.m.

  i truly believe that John 1:5 explains the condition of the world. "And the light shineth in darkness; and the the darkness comprehendred it not"
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  teebig

  Dec. 25, 2006, 11:08 a.m.

  Absolutely! The thing I would have to say about this is, HOW CAN YOU NOT BELIEVE THIS :-)?
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  thestarryhunter

  Dec. 25, 2006, 10:54 a.m.

  its amazing. almost all or at least all the athiests i know,when it comes down to crunch time,whose name do they call out too? also if they you dont believe in Christ why would you curse HIM so? and dont give that "its a generic form of cursing"

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    Beau7890

    Dec. 25, 2006, 11:16 a.m.

    Now, wait a minute, thestarryhunter--as the article states (and as I've noticed from my encounters with athiests), no one is cursing God. To not believe is not the same as to curse him or to curse those who do believe.

    As I was going to say in response to your above comment, "all we can do is love 'em..."--that's the right attitude. When you paint athiests as cursing God, rather than peacefully tolerating those of differing beliefs, you're judging, not necessarily loving.
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    bcellboy

    Dec. 25, 2006, 10:27 p.m.

    "almost all or at least all the athiests i know,when it comes down to crunch time,whose name do they call out too?"

    How many people have you killed?
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  thestarryhunter

  Dec. 25, 2006, 11:03 a.m.

  satan is the author of confusion, and he sure is doing a good job of it!!

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    teebig

    Dec. 25, 2006, 11:11 a.m.

    Yes, unfortunately. But we as Christians must see for them, as long as we allow the Lord to see for us. I feel pity for those who do not believe, both atheist and fairweather Christians; they don't realize how much they are missing.
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  defender35

  Dec. 25, 2006, 11:18 a.m.

  Being God was the tempters tactic in Genesis, "for you will be like God, knowing good and evil." Atheistic belief is indeed responsible for the actions of Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, and Stalin. Don't be fooled. What is theologically implicit in Darwinism is the rejection of the Almighty God to whom we must be held accountable.

  As a Seminary professor once stated, "idolatry and immorality are two sides of the same coin; if you get your worship wrong, you get your morality wrong as well."

  God's existance depends not on atheistic opinions but upon the promise of his Word, "for he who comes to God must believe that his is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him" (Hebrews 11:6).

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    Beau7890

    Dec. 25, 2006, 11:34 a.m.

    Megalomania and the desire to hold absolute power were responsible for the actions of Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot and Stalin, defender.

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      defender35

      Dec. 25, 2006, 12:38 p.m.

      Beau7890,

      I was appealing to the fact that behind "megalomania" and "absolute power" is a condition which is present in every man. Me, you, Stalin, Mao, everybody. This condition is sin, or moral separation from God(Isaiah 59:2). We make gradations of right and wrong, but to God they are all "sin". I say this in humility. That we aren't that bad is attributed to self righteousness.

      But, it is the righteousness of God that man has not acknowledged (Romans 1). I'm aware that I can't even meet the standard to which I hold others. I have a perception of rightness, but yet I cannot even on my best day reach that. How much more is the rightness (or righteousness) of God.

      God says: "The heart is deceitfull above all things, and desparately wicked: who can know it?" Jeremiah 17:9

      How does an atheist address the origin of Evil?

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        Beau7890

        Dec. 25, 2006, 2:45 p.m.

        defender35,

        You attribute the desire to sacrifice all other ideals to attain absolute power to a lack of belief in God. I believe that kind of evil is due to a lack of compassion, humanity and priorities. While you may argue that God's message includes compassion, humanity, etc., I believe that there are other ways of arriving at the conclusion that those traits are necessary and good in order to live in the world among others. You believe God invented those concepts; I believe man did.

        As for how an atheist addresses the origin of evil:

        Man is capable of both great good and great evil. Even you must grant me that--though I can't cite chapter and verse, I'm certain it's in the Bible somewhere.

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          defender35

          Dec. 29, 2006, 1:28 a.m.

          You are correct. The Bible mentions that man is capable of great evil. But because God's standard is high, the Bible doesn't speak much of mankind as being "good" or even capable of the type of good which God requires of man.

          The Bible reveals the heart of man in light of a Holy God. I do believe that mankind exercises compassion apart from believing in God. Anyone is capable, but not all do. That we all don't all the time (and without error) is attributed to our "condition". It's a terminal illness really. The Bible calls it "sin". Because we are knit and made in the image of Almight God, in some degree we are able to reveal those virtues. But because we have the condition of sin (a marred nature) and have not honored nor glorified God for his supremacy, we are damned eternally. But this is only if one hasn't trust in Christ as one's substitute for judgement. See Isaiah 59:2 and 53:6.
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    JohnBryansFontaine

    Dec. 25, 2006, 2:29 p.m.

    Again I state:

    As he was neither Liberal, Progressive, Socialistic, Communistic, Jewish, nor Gay, Hitler was also NOT an atheist. There are any number of references to both God and Christ in Mein Kampf, Hitler stated that he considered himself to be a Catholic and the Nazis celebrated Christmas.

    Why must( usually ) conservatives keep coming up with all these Lies about Hitler?
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  frownonfun

  Dec. 25, 2006, 11:21 a.m.

  ok yeah i'm an atheist and i neither praise nor curse any god. i own all of my accomplishments as do i own all of my shortcomings. i don't need to acknowledge a god to lead a life in keeping with the good of mankind. god may equate peace and love but peace and love do not have to equate god for all of us. i think it is unfortunate that christians think it is ok to unite and demonize those who don't believe what they do. i'm not sure that's what a god, who is said to love all his children, would want.

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    Beau7890

    Dec. 25, 2006, 11:45 a.m.

    Thank you, frownonfun. Not all athiests are antagonistic toward people who believe in God, or a god, just as not all those who believe are antagonistic toward athiests.

    And to those believers who would speak against athiests, what about Luke 6:37 -- "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven."

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      teebig

      Dec. 25, 2006, 1:33 p.m.

      Please Beau7890, don't quote Scriptures if you don't believe it! It is offensive and mocking. That may not be your intent, but that's how it feels. As an atheist, how could you interpret the Scriptures? If you don't know God, then you don't know what He means. When the Lord commands us to judge not, He means, judge not by yourself, instead use God's divine judgment which is written already in Scriptures. Scriptures can also be referred to as, God's Judgments!! Now, God also says, love thy enemy. But we are not to love what the enemy does. Love the sinner, hate the sin. We are to judge what is right from wrong according to scriptures, not according to our own ... instincts, if you will. We are to lean not on our own understanding, but instead lean on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. And there is one thing I know for a truth, and call me a judge, but I judge correctly: No atheist knows God nor recognizes Him!!
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      teebig

      Dec. 25, 2006, 1:42 p.m.

      Please Beau7890, be careful when quoting Scriptures because you don't believe in it! As an atheist, how could you interpret the Scriptures? If you don't know God, then you don't know what He means. This is the source behind misinterpretation of God's Holy Word. Listen, when the Lord commands us to judge not, He means, judge not by yourself, instead use God's divine judgment which is written already in Scriptures. Scriptures can also be referred to as, God's Judgments!! Now, God also says, love thy enemy. But we are not to love what the enemy does. Love the sinner, hate the sin. We are to judge what is right from wrong according to scriptures, not according to our own ... instincts, if you will. We are to lean not on our own understanding, but instead lean on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. You should read scriptures, attend church, seek Him, w/a pure heart, and you will find Him, like I did.

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        Beau7890

        Dec. 25, 2006, 2:55 p.m.

        I apologize, teebig -- I did not mean to offend.

        But when you quote scriptures to make your point, it only seems fair that I should be able to do the same. Let me ask you this: since man's understanding of God is by nature incomplete (we are not omniscient, as I assume you would say he is), then how can you be certain that your interpretation of the scriptures is more correct than mine? By quoting the scriptures verbatim, as I did, I did not inject my own interpretation into the "word that proceeds out of the mouth of God," as you stated.

        By the way, I don't believe that I said I was an atheist. I am, however, one who believes that the Bible was written by man, and also one who believes that literal interpretation of every word of the Bible is dangerous, as different sections of it appear (to me, at least) to contradict each other.

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          teebig

          Dec. 25, 2006, 5:02 p.m.

          Well, ultimately, God will be the judge between you and me, then everyone will see who was with God and who was not. The bible is indeed far more than dry literary interpretation. If one is not spiritually in tune w/Him, they will never get it! If you know Him, you understand Him and won't misinterpret Him. If a friend walks up to you and says to you, "You're a punk!" That person's your friend, you know what he means, it's all in jest. But if your enemy walks up to you and says to you, "You're a punk!" I don't know about you, but I'll be ready to defend myself, if necessary. Same words, different meaning. To me, the Ten Commandments come from a Friend, to others, it's some enemy telling them what to do. Your interpretation of the bible reveals your relationship w/God. Your interpretation of what anyone says to you, reveals your relationship with that person.
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    teebig

    Dec. 25, 2006, 1:24 p.m.

    You already cursed God w/o knowing it. You said you neither curse nor praise Him. Then you state, "i don't need to acknowledge a god to lead a life in keeping with the good of mankind." You don't need to acknowledge God?! So when God finally comes as it is prophecied in Scriptures, and He sees your quote, can you honestly look Him in the eyes and say, "I wasn't cursing you?" You are turning your back to Him. Whatever good you have, God gave it to you. Be careful to whom you give the credit, the praise, and the glory for your accomplishments. God can easily take away what He gives, all is His!
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  Qukatt

  Dec. 25, 2006, 11:58 a.m.

  Of course there's no mention of the difference between being Athiest and Agnostic in that but it's a good article nevertheless.

  for the record - > Agnosticish/Jewish-Chemist ^_^
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  bcellboy

  Dec. 25, 2006, 12:40 p.m.

  this is why atheists can't argue with people of religion, using God did it, or God said it is not a rational argument because it cannot be proved or disproved.

  And you don't need religion to lead a moral life: I don't lie, cheat or steal because it is wrong, not because God told me not to. In addition, I've done more volunteer work than I can remember because I felt I owed it to my fellow man, not because I thought it was a ticket into heaven.

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    PaganGodess

    Dec. 25, 2006, 12:59 p.m.

    {{This is why atheists can't argue with people of religion, using God did it, or God said it is not a rational argument because it cannot be proved or disproved.}}

    Excellently and diplomatically said!

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      zaphod

      Dec. 25, 2006, 1:35 p.m.

      The pro-god people make all their arguments based on the assumption that god exists. It becomes a circular argument (God exists because the bible says so -- the bible is the word of god so it is infallible -- therefore god exists). Someone who is atheist is defined as someone who has no theistically beliefs (A-theist). The concept of god or gods is the same as the concept of the toothfairy. I will not seriously argue the existence of the toothfairy with anyone and I will not seriously argue the existence of god.

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        teebig

        Dec. 25, 2006, 2 p.m.

        Wow! You equated God, the Deity in whom people worship, to the toothfairy? As a Christian, I'm offended by that one. Zaphod, I don't believe everything people tell me, but have you ever just trusted someone because for some reason unexplicable to you, you just believe them? There was a time during my upbringing when I sort of believed in God, not seriously. But one day, something awakened inside of me, while studying w/a Christian pastor, and at that moment, I knew God was for real. There is something about the consistency of the written word, from Genesis to Revelations that is undeniably divine. And now, I just simply "get it!". If you seek the truth, for the sake of truth, you will be like me! You will not only see that there is a God, but know Him personally. But these things are learned in your heart. No one can make you believe, or make you see! That is your God-given right to a free will.

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          zaphod

          Dec. 26, 2006, 2:59 a.m.

          When I seek the truth, I do not come to the same conclusions as you. You will never accept my conclusions because they don't agree with yours. That is the problem. I look for facts not beliefs. By the way, you are free to believe in any thing you wish. To an atheist it makes no difference. Christians however are mandated by their basic tenets to convert everyone to their beliefs. That makes them dangerous.
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    teebig

    Dec. 25, 2006, 1:46 p.m.

    bcellboy, were you born knowing lying, cheating, stealing, and whatever is wrong? Somewhere, you had to learn it was wrong. But anyway, learn about God and you will not only refrain from doing wrong, but do a whole lot of good. I'm a Christian bcellboy, you can argue with me. Warning though, I don't like to argue, but reason. Love is the heart of reason, and God is love.

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      PaganGodess

      Dec. 25, 2006, 1:57 p.m.

      {{but anyway, learn about God and you will not only refrain from doing wrong . . .}}

      I'm sorry, but learning about God is not going to make people stop doing bad things (and we ALL do sometimes) it just won't.

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        teebig

        Dec. 25, 2006, 2:14 p.m.

        You say that because you don't know God yourself. To know God is to be more like God! Don't be deceived by those who claaaaiiimm to know God, but do not. Their wicked ways is the proof they don't know Him. And as for an atheist who does good and does not know God, they may love people but do they love God? The greatest commandment in the bible is, Love God w/all your might, heart, mind, and soul, and the second commandment is: Love thy neighbor as thyself. Would an atheist love someone who murdered their mother or son? And when I say love I mean, forgive them to the point that they would, if they could, invite them into their homes to sit with them at the dinner table? Would anyone love someone like this for that matter? God love is like this and when learning of God, you will also love like this, because it will be the God in you directing your steps. The Lord teaches in ways mysterious to us. When class is over, you resemble the Teacher a little more.

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          PaganGodess

          Dec. 25, 2006, 2:17 p.m.

          {{You say that because you don't know God yourself.}}

          An arrogant comment made by an arrogant person with no tollerance for the beliefs of others.

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            teebig

            Dec. 25, 2006, 2:50 p.m.

            Arrogant? That is the first time in my life anyone has ever called me arrogant. Man, I wish there was a witness out there that could corroborate my statement! Okay, let me rephrase myself, how can you tell me learning about God does NOT influence ones moral character in the most blessed way imaginable? How can you, you have no experience w/God in the matter! Do you? And I'm not being arrogant, it's simply the truth, as arrogant as is may sound to you. How can you argue or comment about something invisible to you other than saying, I can't see what you see? Forgive me if I come across as arrogant to you; there is definitely a misunderstanding in that department. But it doesn't change the truth of my statement. Sorry you feel the way you do. I politely ask that you reason with me PaganGodess, and let's not make accusatory statements at one another. That's not my style. Accusing is the way of an enemy. I'm not your enemy. Ignorance and hasty judgment, that's our enemy.

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              PaganGodess

              Dec. 25, 2006, 2:56 p.m.

              {{Okay, let me rephrase myself, how can you tell me learning about God does NOT influence ones moral character in the most blessed way imaginable?}}

              I never said anything about it NOT influencing moral character. I said it wasn't going to make people stop doing bad things.

              {{How can you argue or comment about something invisible to you other than saying, I can't see what you see?}}

              How can you? You seem to be the one spewing the most of them too!

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                teebig

                Dec. 25, 2006, 3:12 p.m.

                I see I have to speak to you in a certain way. Fine. PaganGodess, God doesn't make you do anything, whether right or wrong. That would contradict our right to a freewill. However, if you want to know Him, He will change your character, and by being changed at the character level, in essence, you will not want to do wrong; a person WILL INDEED STOP doing bad things. He does it through changing your evil character to a good character. The bible teaches, a good tree bears good fruits. Your moral character is the tree, the fruits are your actions. God works on your character so that you may do good things.

                And God is not invisible to me, but invisible to you!
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              PaganGodess

              Dec. 25, 2006, 3:09 p.m.

              {{That is the first time in my life anyone has ever called me arrogant.}}

              They probably do, just not to your face.

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                teebig

                Dec. 25, 2006, 3:17 p.m.

                Because your eyes are wide shut, it will take a major if not catastrophic event in your life to pry your eyes open. I never insulted you, but you continue to insult me. You know less about me then I know about you now. You shouldn't have gotten personal about this. I'm not into insulting other people, that's contrary to who I am. If I'm arrogant, at least I'm not you.

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                  PaganGodess

                  Dec. 25, 2006, 3:28 p.m.

                  {{Because your eyes are wide shut, it will take a major if not catastrophic event in your life to pry your eyes open.}}

                  This is you attempting to force your beliefs on me - not unlike most of your posts on here. If that isn't insulting I don't know what is. You must not be into practicing what you preach.

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                    teebig

                    Dec. 25, 2006, 3:59 p.m.

                    If you can't see that I am being open to discussing these things and not just blindly preaching, your mind is utterly closed. Hey PaganGodess, can we just talk? Or are you just against Christians period? Are you an adult? Seriously.
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          Beau7890

          Dec. 25, 2006, 3:01 p.m.

          I believe PaganGodess said learning about God won't make people stop doing bad things because there are many examples of those who have learned about God, but still do bad things--witness the many clergymen who have fallen from grace. Just because people know God, doesn't mean they always follow what they've learned--we see it time and time again.

          As most religions say, man is flawed--knowing what the right thing to do is, does not necessarily mean one will do the right thing.

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            teebig

            Dec. 25, 2006, 4:04 p.m.

            Those clergymen that do such things are not men of God. There are many Christians who profess to be God's children, but are far from it. Again, learn God for yourself. If I were to lean on men, Christian or not, for guidance, I'd quit my faith. Following other Christians directly is actually anti-biblical. We are to follow God, not man. to be a Christian is not really being like another Christian, but to be like Christ Himself. There are priests who don't believe in God. Trust me when I say, they will pay the uttermost price for that. But don't let any man or woman deter you from following your heart.

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              PaganGodess

              Dec. 25, 2006, 4:15 p.m.

              {{But don't let any man or woman deter you from following your heart.}}

              Excellent advice!
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  nightflyer

  Dec. 25, 2006, 12:47 p.m.

  I am still amazed whenever I see commentaries like these. "How can you be moral? You don't believe in God! How can you believe the Ten Commandments have value if you don't believe in God?"

  How arrogant. I haven't believed in God even as a kid, but still, I managed to be a good person, not go out on killing sprees or become a criminal or something like that. Shocking, I know. How did this happen?

  I'll tell you how. Because I have a brain. Because I'm a responsible human being. Because it doesn't take a belief in god to tell the difference between what is wrong (ie, actions that hurt others) and what is right (actions that either don't hurt or actually help others).

  I have to ask - those of you who believe that your religion is the reason you're "good" people - do you honestly believe that you would be unable to tell the difference without religion?

  Religion has been used as an excuse for slavery, repression, racism, torture and murder throughout history. And I'm not talking way way back, either - people still use it to excuse all these actions today. Not just "the other guys" - people who call themselves Christians, too. Or do you think clinic bombings and assassinations of doctors who provide abortions just kinda happened?

  And howzabout all those upstanding religious leaders and individuals who keep getting caught with their pants down, sometimes literally? Religion sure didn't help them become good guys - although it did make them, oh, what's the word.... oh, yeah, hypocrites. Hmmm.... wasn't theere a long-haired religious figure who didn't much like hypocrites?

  As to the 10 commandments, what's so tough about figuring out the value? Don't steal, don't kill, don't nail the neighbor's wife, etc. These aren't exactly complex philosophical debates. And you don't need the Bible or the Torah or anything else to figure this stuff out. Well, I don't, anyway. Maybe you guys do. And if that's the case, then what does that say about you?

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    defender35

    Dec. 25, 2006, 1:37 p.m.

    You are correct. You don't need to have someone tell you right and wrong. Our conscience convicts us of an exterior standard of rightness. This is beyond you and me, and beyond all others. The universality of this moral ought should be enough to convict all mankind of a Moral God. It is this moral lawgiver to whom we must give an account. And we have missed the mark.

    Jesus didn't miss the mark, though. And when we acknowledge the existance of God, submit to his supremacy and moral authority, repent from our ways and turn to God's ways, then by faith in Jesus (his substitution for our rebellion) we have available for us all the blessings and truth of God himself. Jesus was the God-man. He reconciled us to God.
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  Goppy

  Dec. 25, 2006, 12:52 p.m.

  The difference between Atheists and Christians is one important thing.

  God has treated us Christians to a special preview of the entire 2007 season of The TODAY Show.

  Belive me, it's not pretty, and it will continue to look bleak for you atheists.

  Better consider your afterlife status now!!

  Because you KNOW how it ends!

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    bcellboy

    Dec. 25, 2006, 1:06 p.m.

    And heeeeeeerrrreee's Goppy!

    The most self-righteous and ignorant of the bunch.

    Merry Christmas!

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      Goppy

      Dec. 25, 2006, 1:26 p.m.

      bcellboy, I must tell you, you do NOT appear on The TODAY show at any time during 2007.

      Not even as a footnote, a reference, an innocent bystander, objective observer, innocent victim, nor are you quoted leaving any theatre or polling station.

      Other than that, your life in 2007 shall be fruitful.

      I see you attending a very large Church with Rock Music.

      Please pay attention to the voices in your head during that 2 hour period.

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        Beau7890

        Dec. 25, 2006, 3:05 p.m.

        LOL!
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  CriticalTheorist

  Dec. 25, 2006, 1:13 p.m.

  I can see from this thread that, in spite of Sam Harris's excellent article, very few posters understand atheism. To those who want to know more or are curious about atheism, I invite you to go to internetinfidels.org and proceed to its forum. There you will find many atheists to discuss issues with. It's the best discussion forum on the web!!!

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    JohnBryansFontaine

    Dec. 25, 2006, 2:44 p.m.

    Seeing the ad in the NY Times for Harris' book 'Letter to a Christian Nation', I was offended by the headline: Religion = Madness.

    I would ask Harris and all the other PC-Stalinist atheists, if their glorious atheism is so Rational, then why did an atheist recently set himself on fire, over something being named for Christmas and Easter, instead of winter and spring??
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  Daylight

  Dec. 25, 2006, 1:18 p.m.

  Albert1

  Your saying people dont learn by their mistakes but only from Gods intervention. Keep in mind God didn't write the bible MAN did.

  That is the reason it is flawed, and needs to be revised all the time, and call it Revised Version, it is a version, inspiration comes in different version, I certainly agree with most of your argument about God, but when you say your Bible is inspired by God I will not agree with you, because if it has been inspired by God you won't find errors and phonographic materials in that book, if you need I can give a list of references, the name Bible is not given by God it means library of books. Written by many people and they all have different things to say for why they had to write.

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    defender35

    Dec. 29, 2006, 1:39 a.m.

    Albert,

    In all sincerity, you've approached the Bible with much skepticism.

    Here's some questions any reasonable and well though atheist should be able to answer:

    1) Where did evil come from?

    2) If atheism is "universal truth", how has atheism benefitted mankind as a whole.

    3) Why does mankind long for supernatural things while other life forms don't.

    4)Why is earth centered at the proper distance from the sun? Any closer we'd burn; any further we'd freeze to death.

    5)Why can't man measure up to the standard which he expects of others? Maybe a universal moral standard? A personal God, perhaps?

    6) Why are we able to partake of nature: it's beauty, scent, magnificance, granduer? I think something (or Someone?) is wooing us.

    I hope you'll consider those thoughts despite your assumptions against God. Atheism should be able to answer those if it is indeed "truth".
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  PaganGodess

  Dec. 25, 2006, 1:23 p.m.

  Good article explaining the scientific mind. Scientists must rely on empirical evidence which I can understand completely.

  Religion and spirituality are deeply personal choices that everyone is free to make for themselves. I think mankind intuitively knows what is right and wrong and I suspect we have for a long time! Does that mean we always do it? Nope - and we never will. That's the nature of being human.

  I respect the beliefs of others even if they disagree with my own. What I do not respect is people trying to shove THEIR religious beliefs on me as being the "ONE RIGHT AND ONLY" way, dictating to me what THEY believe my afterlife will be like as a result of not agreeing with them or presuming to know what I believe and tossing ignorant insults at me in the process.

  FYI - the only person who will KNOW, beyond a shadow of a doubt what YOUR afterlife will look like is you and you won't live to tell us about it. = ]

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    teebig

    Dec. 25, 2006, 2:27 p.m.

    Whatever men know that is true, God implanted it there; afterall, is He not our Creator? Whatever we are that is good, He gave it to us. Whatever we are not, God chose to withhold it from us. Do you know that in the beginning, and when I say beginning, I mean the days of Adam, that there were no bibles, nor churches, nor temples? But there was God and His Word. And as soon as we decided to go off and do things on our own by disobeying what God commanded us not to do, behold, we have the Ten Commandments, bibles, churches, etc. The point is, men need instruction, it was proven in the Garden of Eden. But there will come a time, when things will be made new, and restored to prestine times, and there will again be no church, no bible, no priest, because we will be in the presence of God Himself, and there will be no need of such things. He will again instruct us directly.

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      PaganGodess

      Dec. 25, 2006, 2:37 p.m.

      I think you should save your preaching for your Sunday sermons.

      Your passion is admirable however, as I explained above in some detail, it is disrespectful of you to dictate to the rest of us how we should act and believe based on what YOU believe. Do you not have church forums where you can all get passionate with people who already think like you?

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        teebig

        Dec. 25, 2006, 2:59 p.m.

        I must preach, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, ....., Saturday! I am not telling you to believe what I believe! It is futile, I have no right to do it, and it's impossible for me to make you do it. However, as you told me not to preach, that is one thing I can do, bible thumping and all! What good is it to just share my beliefs with my Christian fellows? If I do that, how will there ever be new Christians? Sorry PaganGodess, I must do what God inspires me to do. But anyway, why do people become so defensive about religion, even atheists, with this, telling us what to do stuff? I'm not your Lord! I'm your brother. We are equals. But if I found something that is good, and right, and wonderful, how can I not share it w/those who don't know about it? At least you should go and see for yourself to see whether or not I'm delusional or exaggerating! I like this forum. I'm going nowhere!

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          PaganGodess

          Dec. 25, 2006, 3:17 p.m.

          {{I am not telling you to believe what I believe!}}

          Are you certain? You sure are giving an excellent immitation of it.

          {{But if I found something that is good, and right, and wonderful, how can I not share it w/those who don't know about it?}}

          Good for you! The people who are interested will find you

          {{At least you should go and see for yourself to see whether or not I'm delusion